Stephanie Wierwille: [00:00:00] Welcome to the No Normal Show, brought to you by BPDA marketing services firm that delivers the future to healthcare’s leading brands. This show is where we leave all things status quo, traditional old school, and boring in the dust, and instead we celebrate the new, the powerful. The innovative, the bold, all focused around the future of healthcare, marketing, and communications.
I’m your host, Stephanie Weill, EVP of Strategy and Innovation, and I’m joined by two special guests. We have EVP of client services. Trish Broner, welcome back. Trish. Hello. Great to be here. Stephanie, great to see you on this Friday, right before Thanksgiving holiday. Yep. And we also have, uh, a returning guest, Tiara Carlock, content strategist.
Hello Tiarra. Hello. Hello everybody. Glad to be back. Yes. I love having you on Tiara. So excited for this. Uh, we have a great agenda today. Uh, first of all, we’re gonna cover some headlines. Uh, we’re coming right off of the HCIC conference where we got to see so many wonderful health system leaders and have a lot of great [00:01:00] conversations around what’s happening in digital marketing and innovation.
Um, and then Tiara, since you’re here with us, I would love to hear from you what’s on the mind of nurses when we get there in our agenda. But you do a ton of work in the nurse space, and that’s such an important audience for our. For our clients and systems. So the main topic of the day is gonna be some really interesting survey results that are hot off the press.
BPD ran a study in October to understand how are consumers feeling about healthcare marketing, uh, what are perceptions out there? How are people feeling about healthcare advertising, especially as we roll up to that holiday time period where we often feel like there’s a lot of clutter in this space. So we’ve got some fresh stats to share.
Before we get into all that, just a few quick notes and updates. We are so excited to share that there are some really awesome, um, award shows that have been happening, that have been really celebrating the work that BPD and BP DERs have done as well of our cl as well as our clients. Um, so we, um, in addition to some amazing awards for our Robert Wood [00:02:00] Johnson Foundation Shift team, um, and an adage article that we’ll link to in the show notes.
Uh, super excited about that because it’s just showing, you know, back to the point around nurses, um, this, this program and this, um, campaign has really focused on eliminating nursing or racism in nursing. Really, really important. And it’s getting so much well deserved love. So we’ll link that adage, um. Uh, article down below.
Secondly, we’re excited to kind of, uh, toot our own horn for a second and say the No Normal Show itself was an E Healthcare Award winner. Uh, so this show won Silver for Best podcast, which thank you. Thank you. It feels, um, just so awesome that, um, you know, it’s, it’s getting some love, but it’s also just a passion point of ours that we get to do it.
You know, every single week. So a couple more notes, uh, we would love if you join us next month for AI and Healthcare Marketing Week, which is hosted by e Healthcare Strategy and Trends. We are hosting a virtual summit built [00:03:00] explicitly for health health system marketers, and it’s all around scaling ai. Um, and we will have several of our, uh, BBD crew as well as our health.
Some friends and clients, um, and contacts, uh, really be speaking and sharing awesome case studies. So we’ll highlight these as we go forward for the next month. But one example is AI and content strategies for optimizing generative ai, which will be with Matt Ser, uh, founder and president of Loop Ai, and also our own Emily Baker, a VP of engagement here at BPD.
So with that, why don’t we get in. Um, before we get into it, Trish and Tiara, I’m so curious. We are here upon Thanksgiving week, which I just can’t even believe. Um, what are you all up to as you head into this next week of, of
Trish Brawner: gratitude? I’ll jump in. I too, Stephanie cannot believe it’s Thanksgiving week that, that we are heading into it.
I just feel like we, we blinked and, and woo. Now we’re here. So I’m really excited to get together with [00:04:00] some family. So I am Florida based, uh, but my family and my husband’s family all live in Illinois outside of the Chicago area. So. We are gonna be one of those millions of travelers heading to the airport next week on Tuesday, heading up.
Um, and, and going to spend some time with some family getting a blast of cold air, um, that, that Midwest fall air. And, uh, just really enjoying some, some good family time, a lot of food, and we can’t wait. Blast of cold air. Ooh, yes. Yes. It’s supposed to be in the twenties and thirties. So it’s a far, far difference from, um, the, the eighties that we’re currently experiencing right now in Florida.
Stephanie Wierwille: Okay, well I hope you survive. That sounds intense. Yeah. Yep. But, but also all, always excited to be with family. Um, Tiarra, what are you up to?
Tiera Carlock: Yes, same. Um, family is next week, but tomorrow I’ve got a Friendsgiving, there’s gonna be like 10 of us here. So the kitchen is currently a mess this morning. There’s a lot of dry mixes, wet mixes, ready to be baked.
I’ve got [00:05:00] cornbread dressing, another quick bread, a spice cake. So there’s a whole lot going on in the Carlock household, but thankfully I don’t have to take it, uh, very far. Um. My Friendsgiving is just around the corner from my house, and then next week I’ll be heading up to Clarksville to see my dad’s side of the family.
So always a good time around them.
Stephanie Wierwille: Tiara, you are the baker at BPD, so I cannot watch. I am the resident baker. You are dry mixes, wet mixes, um, all the things. I will be watching your so much going on Instagram very closely all weekend to make sure I know what you’re up to. That’s
Tiera Carlock: where, that’s where the sanity will slowly, slowly start to decline.
You’ll see it. You’ll see it. That’s funny. That’s funny.
Trish Brawner: Stephanie, what about you? What are your Thanksgiving plans?
Stephanie Wierwille: I’m hanging out here in the Nashville area. Um, Nashville Murfreesboro will be hitting multiple family events. Um, but more importantly I’m seeing Wicked for Good tonight. So, and I’m seeing it on Screen X, so I feel like I’m about to be an ambassador for Screen X, but it’s like this experience where the screen actually comes out to your right and left, um, and they [00:06:00] extend the scenes.
So that means there will be extra tears, extra laughs. You know,
Tiera Carlock: it’ll be, I’m seeing it tomorrow. I completely forgot. So I will have to mute your Instagram story just to make sure I don’t get spoiled.
Stephanie Wierwille: Okay. Well, we’ll compare notes on Sunday. Yeah. So fun. All righty. Well, let’s get into some of our head health head headlines, healthcare headlines.
That’s a mouthful. Um, healthcare and marketing headlines. Uh, first of all, and I’ll hit this one rather quickly, but the team, uh, was out at HCIC last week. We were in Las Vegas again. I don’t, I don’t think we’ll be going back anytime soon. It’s a lot of Las Vegas. Um. From health to HCIC, but, uh, it was a blast.
It was amazing, and it was so awesome to see so many wonderful health system leaders out and about, um, some really, really great keynotes. Uh, a few to shout out were, um, David Feinberg’s keynotes around, uh, leadership principles, uh, from Mount Sinai. Um, there was some really awesome [00:07:00] panels, uh, inclu, including Dow, uh, the CMO of Piedmont.
Always a wonderful speaker. Uh, but I think for me, some of the big takeaways were around data and digital and just the fact that health systems are really, really further along in their journeys, you know, even than last year. Um, and really digging into the details of, you know, things like find AOC experiences and, um.
Um, you know, the patient journey and how to make it more seamless. And I think, uh, really highlighting the need for not just tech chops, but change management chops and culture chops. So, um, Trish, did you hear anything from any of your awesome clients? Uh, from HCIC or even just in general after this conference season?
Trish Brawner: Well, I think in general, this, this whole topic just really, um, sort of adds to a topic that we’ve been kind of talking about over the past couple of months where. Um, we’re thinking, we’re thinking about the role of marketing and how the role of marketing, um, may be more and more [00:08:00] impacting the patient experience marketing, you know, our, our partners in marketing are more accountable now for, for bringing patients through the door.
Um, and also, you know, offering and helping them navigate across the, you know, variety of services that the health systems are offering. And so we need to make sure that that experience is, is seamless and easy because we know that sometimes it can feel really complex and confusing. So I love that this was a key takeaway and that health systems were really digging into all of these different opportunities, how we can use digital, um, uh, data to help navigate this.
So it’s really exciting to hear that this continues to be a topic and, um, a lot of our clients are, are really rolling up their sleeves and digging into it more and more.
Stephanie Wierwille: Rolling up the sleeves definitely feels like the right metaphor here because we recognize it’s a ton of work. And I think what was cool was hearing the very explicit case studies of, you know, from the inside of what it really takes.
Um, and you know, what it really takes in healthcare in a world where you have physician [00:09:00] voices to deal with and you know, it voices, but also finance voices and all of it. So, um, agree with you Trish. This is a huge expanding area for all of our, um, friends. Um, so Tiara, uh, so excited to have you back on, as I mentioned before.
Um, but I really wanna see what’s going on in your world because you know, your background even prior to BPD, uh, really dug into the world of nursing and. At BPD, you have really had, um, you know, all kinds of great experiences where you have, uh, leaned into nursing programs, whether it is, um, you know, the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation Shift Program I mentioned earlier, or your, your work across, um, you know, health systems and others.
And so many healthcare organizations right now are thinking about how to engage, uh, a nurse, um, audience. So are there a few things that are on your mind? Uh, that, that maybe we should be thinking about.
Tiera Carlock: Yeah, definitely. So the big picture kind of right now is that nursing, like all of [00:10:00] healthcare over the past couple of years is at this really, really deep turning point, this kind of inflection point.
So a lot about nursing is changing from the pipeline strain to the presence of ai, to nurses getting more involved in policy and having those really, really important seats and voices at the table. So, you know, the healthcare industry and everyone else, especially me because I, you know, before this I wasn’t directly in healthcare, but nurses are being recognized as a lot more than just.
Support staff. You know, they’re the frontline workers. They are, they have the, you know, POV directly of the patient experience. They’re critical to access, experience and that strategy, but there’s a lot of pressure going on. So recently in the week, um, the US Department of Education just reclassified nursing degrees so that they no longer qualify as professional degrees for some federal student loan programs.
So that’s a really, really big punch to the gut for future nurses, especially those APRNs that are doing advanced practice and those really, really specific. You know, kind of low and high acuity areas, and that is really just a big punch to the pipeline at what’s the worst time. [00:11:00] Um, nurses are already feeling burnt out, wanting to leave the professions.
40% of them almost saying that they wouldn’t choose the profession again. So there’s a lot of, you know. Space for marketers like ourselves to, you know, really elevate nurses as the brand. If they’re not engaged, if they’re burnt out, if they’re underpaid, they’re leaving. That has to do with everything the hospital and health system has, the reputation, the trust, and especially the patient outcomes.
So some of what we’ve been doing, like you said, with Shift as I work on, and j and j, you know, Johnson Johnson, we’re really using. Our knowledge to spotlight nurses. They’re the innovators, they’re the leaders. They’re the experts. They’re the face of care. They’re the voice of change. So any opportunity that we have, like the nurse hack for health, um, hackathon that just happened earlier this week, or documentaries like, who cares in everybody’s work from shift, they’re not a workforce issue.
They’re not a problem to solve, but instead they are the problem solvers. So they should be treated like it.
Stephanie Wierwille: That’s beautiful. Yeah. They’re not a problem to [00:12:00] solve. They’re the problem solvers. And I think when organizations and leadership can kind of flip it on its head and say, okay, if we have a workforce that’s burnt out, how do we not just preach at them, but really leverage them, you know, and, and all that they know and.
That does. I will say though, back to your point about the policy change, dear, that’s a huge red flag for healthcare broadly because we are already understaffed. We are already struggling with getting enough clinicians and nurses. Um, and so anything small or large that, uh, makes it even harder to recruit, harder to, you know, educate, um, that workforce is just gonna be a domino effect.
So I think that that means that the work that you’re talking about, which is. Showing everybody, um, you know, the importance of nurses, but then also standing up for nurses becomes even more important in 2026.
Tiera Carlock: For sure. For sure. I’m excited to do more work in that regard. ’cause just being at BPD and then my prior experience, it’s taught me so much about nurses that I as a patient would have never known.
[00:13:00] So I’m grateful for the learning experience and grateful to be someone who is standing up for them, even if I’m all the way in the bag.
Stephanie Wierwille: Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the work you do, Tiara. I think it’s just, it’s so important, um, and, you know, you are, you are doing some really, really critical work.
Um, why don’t we move to our topic du jour, which is around some, uh, fresh survey results about consumer’s perceptions of how care, so. This is kind of an end of the year, um, study or survey. Just really getting a finger on the pulse of how are people feeling right now about healthcare marketing specifically.
I think we talk a lot in our industry about healthcare marketing and you know, we are yes experts and sometimes armchair experts. Thinking about what consumers may want or need, but it’s really important to have the data to say what are they feeling? What are they thinking? Um, and so we’re always running, you know, surveys and studies of all kinds of, all types of topics.
Um, so if you’re listening and you have something you wanna learn more about, shoot us a note. We would be happy to, to kind of run a study. Uh, but [00:14:00] this one specifically was, was trying to answer the question of what do people think about healthcare, marketing, advertising, what they see on tv, what they see on billboards, on digital marketing, how are they feeling about health system advertising specifically?
Um, so I’ll just, we’ll, we’ve got maybe three or four of the result topics to share here. And, and, um, as soon as we finalize, uh, the overarching report, we’ll make sure that we, uh, share that out, um, for everybody to download. Um, but I’m just going to dig into the first one and then, um, I’ll turn it to you, Trish, to kind of give your take on this since you are, um, really in the trenches here.
Uh, but just the first headline I think that came out of these results was. A surprise to me. Um, so, so many times as marketers, we think everyone’s tired of advertising. Everyone’s tired of healthcare ads, healthcare ads are terrible, healthcare is behind, and that is still true, right? But the data shows something really exciting and interesting, um, which is that many people are actually happy with the marketing frequency, and in [00:15:00] fact, many people actually feel relatively positive about.
Ads and or marketing that comes directly from health systems. So we’ll dig into why is that and you know, is it a halo effect from just, you know, health systems being trusted, uh, what’s going on? But just to give you some stats. So when we ask people, um, about healthcare advertising frequently, um, frequency, most people, 76%.
Have a Goldilocks uh, response, which is, it’s just the right amount. Um, 17% feel that it’s too much. So there certainly are some. Um, and then we’ll get into a little bit later, but most of the sentiment around, uh, healthcare marketing is actually relatively positive. So, Trish, as you saw these results, what was your first, first reaction?
Trish Brawner: I had the same reaction as you, Stephanie. It kind of blew my mind, honestly, because I feel like the, the thing we always hear, especially as I think about all the conversations we’re having with our clients and the [00:16:00] conversations that our partners are having in, you know, internal and in their health systems is.
They, they do have this hypothesis that it’s just too much, or there’s this question of how much do we invest in? Is this really needed? And we know that a lot of our client partners are in a mode of really having to sort of defend every marketing dollar and help and help provide that rationale of the benefit and the value, and that’s all really important.
But this is a piece of a consumer nugget, a consumer insight that shows that if consumers truly feel like the amount of healthcare advertising they’re seeing is just right. The goldilock, I love the Goldilocks thing just right. Um. Even a small percentage said it’s not enough. Well, what an opportunity, and I know we’re gonna dig more into some of the details here, but what an opportunity to, to understand that they want to be hearing from us.
And so how do we take that opportunity and really give them really valuable information that’s going to help them navigate their journeys and help create some of that kind of brand affinity and, and brand love that [00:17:00] I know a lot of our clients are really focused on.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah, and you know, we can, we can dig in in future, um, discussions around geographical differences and all that.
But I also just wanna note in terms of the methodology here. This was a national sample of a thousand plus participants, um, adults age 18 plus. And we will get into. Some of the slight differences in, in markets. But I think to your point, Trish, this is a broad swath and yes, I was definitely surprised because often I think we as marketers are so in our own worlds and in our own minds, you know, we see our work over and over and over again and we sometimes feel like there’s gonna be wear out or, you know, people may feel a certain way.
And, um, it’s always important to see, you know, how people are really feeling. Tiara, what were your thoughts as you, as you went through these results, and I know you’re kind of helping shape that report as well.
Tiera Carlock: Yeah, it was a huge surprise headline. You know, for me too, like Stephanie, you’re talking about how as healthcare marketers we’re always thinking, you know, is this too much?
We’ve got to defend our ideas sometimes because these dollars, especially for smaller health systems, are so much more [00:18:00] limited in what they can do. But also think about myself and you know, we’re all consumers here on the call. We get tired of ads too. I know I do. Almost every streaming service I pay for is ad free.
I have YouTube premium, like I don’t wanna see them either. But from the job side, it’s a really, really big opportunity. So, you know, like how we’ve been tiptoeing around that kind of marketing, not trying to do too much, but. With that being said, you know, we’re leaving value on the table. You know, we are always called to do more for health systems.
Say more show up boldly. I think this is just a really good green light for us and for, you know, any health system leader listening to see the value in leaning into creative and into content campaigns that, you know, go deeper, you know, invoke some emotion. It doesn’t always have to be, you know. Come into the system and do this and that.
Speaking with more confidence, educating people more, you know, it’s not really about marketing less. I think people should, and think a lot about marketing smarter. ’cause the appetite is there clearly.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And you know what this [00:19:00] study doesn’t tell us is, is the, is the marketing doing its job?
Is it responding to the business objectives? You know, is it working? That’s not what the point of this is explicitly. We can dig into that in futures. Um, but I think that what’s fascinating is maybe health systems and healthcare has a little bit of a halo. Where we know that it is really trusted. And so the sentiment numbers, uh, were really interesting where, you know, about 58% of the audience actually felt really positive about the messages they’ve received.
Um, I think what was interesting in that there was some tension there, and I’ll turn it to, to you Tiara, if you wanna talk a little bit about some of the differences of exposure. So people who were exposed to more versus less. Um, what, what did you see, uh, in terms of, you know, differences of slicing, slicing the audience in that way?
Tiera Carlock: Yep. So again, it’s good for us, you know, there’s. A myth that people are tired of healthcare ads. And you know, honestly, before I read this report, I figured that it would be lumped into the same as, you know, the retail and the consuming ads. But that is just totally not true. [00:20:00] I mean, what we found is that nearly half of people see healthcare marketing at least on a weekly basis, but.
The sentiment is pretty positive and neutral. You know, people aren’t really tired of it. Even in those highly competitive systems where they’re seeing messages from multiple, multiple, multiple systems, that exposure and the fatigue, it’s, it’s not really matching up. So, thankfully we’re not annoying people, but we’ve definitely got an opportunity to talk more about what it is that they care about.
So, you know, I’m thinking even people living near those. Fewer health systems, they were more likely to say that they don’t wanna see healthcare marketing, but not because it’s an oversaturation problem, but because it feels irrelevant. So I think the thing to do here is not necessarily to pull back. The frequency is fine, especially for those high frequency viewers, but it’s gotta get more sharper, more specific.
You know, for rural health systems, it’s definitely about access and whether or not they’ll be able to get the care that they need. For older populations or people with those chronic complex illnesses, it’s about who’s gonna be a part of my care team over the short term [00:21:00] and long term for as long as I’m dealing with this.
So it’s just, it’s, there’s a lot of opportunity to make messaging as really targeted and fine tuned as possible, but I think that makes it fun for us. We get to do some more testing, you know, make that our North Star, you know, and just uncover how what people say and what they do aren’t always the same.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yes, and we’re gonna come back to that. ’cause that’s a huge point, right? What people say and what they do are not always the same. So hold that thought. Let’s loop back on that. That’s really important. I do wanna also though double click into one thing that you mentioned, and Trish, I wanna know if you have a take here, but I thought it was really interesting, um, of, of, you know, as Tiarra said, those who live within 30 minutes of um.
You know, uh, even just a couple systems. So zero to one are less likely to say that they see too much as opposed to those who live within 30 minutes of three plus. Um. Feel like they’re, they’re sort of almost not seeing enough, right? So I think the difference here, I’ll just sort of spell it out in plain English, is if you live in a market with many health systems, you’re like, bring it [00:22:00] on.
Like, I wanna see more. I wanna understand what’s going on in my market. I wanna understand who the health systems are near me. Um, maybe understand more if you’re living, like Tiara said, in a market with less health systems and less choice. You know, you mentioned Tiara, it may feel irrelevant. Um. But that was surprising and interesting to me.
Trish, what was your take on that? It,
Trish Brawner: it was also surprising and interesting too. So I think in, in the markets where maybe I only have one health system within 30 minutes of me, and so it doesn’t really feel relevant, I think I, that makes sense to me. So when you just think logically, it’s like, okay, I’ve just got this one health system.
So that’s where I’m going for all of my needs. So why would I even need more of this? I think that felt, um, that felt that makes sense. But in those markets where there might be several options, and the response in this survey was, Hey, I’m not getting enough. Bring it on. That is really interesting because I think intuitively.
One might hypothesize that, okay, if I have all these health systems, I’m seeing a lot of different healthcare ads [00:23:00] and I’m just gonna tune it out. It’s too much. Right? But that’s not what we found. So what that tells me is that the opportunity is when there are more options, it actually might just confuse and complicate things a little bit because it’s like, I don’t really understand what the difference is between these health systems or why might one be better than the other, or maybe, I know this one is good at that, but.
Do they all kind of do the same thing? So I think when we’re in those markets where there might be several options, it might just feel muddy to, to consumers because they just don’t really know what the best option is. So I think it’s so interesting and again, what an opportunity and. When the finding said for those in the bigger markets with more options, bring it on.
I’m not getting enough. What an opportunity for health systems to go out there and just provide more of that clarity in helping consumers navigate their needs and understand what they do have to offer and how, and how they can help them, and how to differentiate themselves in these markets that maybe are more saturated.
Stephanie Wierwille: For sure, for [00:24:00] sure. Um, so we’ll wrap up soon here, but I think that the last point is just, you know, you said it so well, Tiara, which is what they, what they say they want and what they actually want is not necessarily the same thing. And so as we dig more into these results and continue to explore them, um, some of the areas that we are interested in, we’re gonna.
Kind of bring back some more theories and hypotheses over time, but people talked about tone of messages, so they want professional caring tone, but actually what works is more emotional tone. So there’s an interesting tension there. Um, people said that maybe they didn’t take an action based on seeing a message, but we know that not top, top of the funnel advertising is not necessarily built for that.
So there’s a tension there. Um, and what I’m really excited about is these are just. Super high level, you know, tip of the iceberg stats. Um, but of course we love to dig into what are the layers of meaning and what’s the why and what’s the tension between them and what’s actually happening. So I think there’s more work to be done, which any good study or survey raises more questions than answers, which is always great.
Um, any last takeaways or thoughts or [00:25:00] surprises for either one of you before we wrap?
Tiera Carlock: Yeah, I’m really, really glad to see, you know, especially from a job perspective, is that healthcare marketing is working a lot better than we think. You know, as we continue to deep dive into those results, I think that, you know, we don’t need to play it safe, but health systems, you know, kind of have to.
Rise to the challenge too. You know, there’s those topics that they won’t avoid because they might be too controversial or too complex, or especially right now, a little bit too political. But I think that’s what people are looking for. They’re not looking for these, you know, generic, dumb down messages.
Every message that you know comes out of a hospital has. Or health system, it needs to be leveled up. People wanna hear about healthcare policy. They probably want, well they definitely do want to hear nurses and doctors and scientists and even patients, you know, they don’t want to hear influencers, they don’t want to hear from the execs.
They want to hear from the people doing the actual patient care. So there’s a chance to, you know, kind of build that starting five, that really, really good bench of players, of those real people within the health system and just let them [00:26:00] lead the story because there’s, it’s, you know, it’s all for the taking right now.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah. Love
Trish Brawner: that. That’s
Stephanie Wierwille: a great call to action.
Trish Brawner: I think from my perspective, I, I couldn’t agree more with everything Tiara just said. And, and I think overall for me as the one word that really comes to mind is just opportunity. So what an opportunity for our partners as we think about the fact that at, at a high level, consumers, um, feel like they’re not, they don’t feel bombarded.
They like, they actually kind of like the healthcare ads. They wanna hear more, they wanna understand more. So what an opportunity to just continue to reach them, connect with them. Um, and really sort of create those bonds as a brand and, and how we’re serving these communities. So what an opportunity, um, as we continue to dig into those results.
Stephanie Wierwille: Awesome. Well, we’ll close here. Um, but we felt like this was leading into the holidays. Maybe a nice piece of optimism in a world where we have so much challenge. This has been a year of challenge for healthcare leaders and healthcare, um, professionals. And [00:27:00] so here’s just a teeny tiny bit of, uh, optimism and like you said, Trish opportunity.
So, um, we’ll leave it with that ahead of this Thanksgiving week. But, um, as always, uh, let us know if there’s anything you want us to cover. If there, if there’s any studies you want to. To do. We’d be happy to dig into things. We love to do that kind of research. Um, give us a review rating if you’ve got it.
And don’t be satisfied with the normal. Don’t be satisfied. Um, you know, with just a couple stats, dig in always and ask questions and get out there and see what people really need and want and, um, that’s the no normal that we try to bring. So thank you. Thank you, and we’ll talk to you soon.
Trish Brawner: Thank you.
Stephanie Wierwille: Thanks.
