Stephanie Wierwille: [00:00:00] Welcome to the No Normal Show, brought to you by BPDA marketing services firm that delivers the future to healthcare’s leading brands. This show is where we leave all things status quo, traditional old school, and boring in the dust, and instead we celebrate the new, the powerful, the innovative, the bold, all focused around the future of healthcare, marketing and communications.
I’m Stephanie Rear, EVP of Strategy and. Innovation here at BPD and I am joined by a very exciting returning guest. Kate Cavanaugh, SVP of Payer Provider Practice Lead. Hi Kate.
Kate Caverno: Stephanie. How are you?
Stephanie Wierwille: I’m so good and I’m so happy that you’re joining. I’m so excited for this conversation.
Kate Caverno: too. Thanks for having me back. I appreciate it.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yes, we’re gonna get into all things, um, finance, payer provider relations, managed care, contracting negotiations today.
Um, it’s gonna be a really fun one.
Kate Caverno: I’m excited.
Stephanie Wierwille: So with that, why don’t I run through our agenda real quick so [00:01:00] people know what’s coming. Um, first we’ve got a couple interesting headlines. Uh, Becker’s Hospital Review published a list of 82 health systems with strong finances. And so out of sheer curiosity, we kind of geeked out a little bit and said, what are the patterns happening on that list?
And, um, you know. What can all health systems be thinking about in terms of financial strength? And then secondly, there was a headline around why Medicare Advantage contract negotiations are getting heated. So Kate, that one’s all you, and I can’t wait to hear about what’s, what’s hot,
Kate Caverno: They are
Stephanie Wierwille: fiery?
Kate Caverno: sure.
Stephanie Wierwille: Okay. And then our main topic, surprise, surprise, is all about payer provider relations and managed care.
So as we look to 2026, we wanna make sure that folks are really thinking ahead and thinking ahead to everything from what’s going on with reimbursement rates, to negotiations, to contracting and beyond. And also just what’s on the mind of payers. You know, what are, what are they thinking about?
Kate Caverno: We all
Stephanie Wierwille: So, yeah, we do, we do.
We wanna. We wanna, um, jump in the brains
Kate Caverno: right.
Stephanie Wierwille: so. Here’s a few just little housekeeping items. Uh, we always like to let folks know what’s going on. Um, [00:02:00] and I think something really exciting is happening next week. Actually. We’ve mentioned it before, but it is, uh, you know, happening right away. Actually, by the time this will be live, it will be kind of in, in, uh.
Progress. So BPD is partnering with E Healthcare Strategy and Trends for AI and Healthcare Marketing Week. Um, and that really is a full week of virtual programming, a virtual conference for marketing leaders, digital leaders at hospitals, health systems, and other provider organizations. So we’ll have speakers from a wide variety of health systems talking about what they are doing in the AI realm.
Everybody from UChicago Medicine to UNC Health, Baptist Health, south Florida, Mount Sinai, advent Health, Providence, Cleveland Clinic, Northwell Health. Really a star studded lineup that I’m really pumped about. So if you’re not signed up, um, and if you wanna jump in even midstream, there’s a whole week. Um, so that will be Monday through Friday.
Starting on, uh, December 8th. So by the time this launches, uh, you know, we’ll [00:03:00] be, we’ll be in the midst, but you can sign up@ehealthcarestrategy.com slash ai in Healthcare Marketing Week, and we will drop a link in the show notes so you don’t have to just type it all. In another event that’s super exciting is of course the Joe Public Retreat, and I think we’ve talked a lot about that.
So I won’t go into detail, but um, it’s a whole event focused on ai and you can sign up by visiting bpd healthcare.com. And then a couple specific notes really focused on our topic to. Today. So we’ve got a recent blog that just came live called Bridging the Gap, marketing and Managed Care, working as one authored by Kate who is here.
So I know we’ll get into some of those details later on about, you know, how managed care trends can really apply to marketing and vice versa. And then lastly, uh, we have a report from a few months ago, but still very relevant called Good People, flawed System. Um, and we’ll be talking more about that today, but that is all around what is in the minds of, um, of payers.
Anything you wanna add, Kate? Especially on those last two [00:04:00] before we jump in.
Kate Caverno: I, I, I think the, the blog post that we just wrote a few weeks ago, I, well, two weeks ago, I think, at this point, but it’s one of those things that. Maybe doesn’t seem quite so intuitive that managed care and marketing belong together. But you ever have those, like late night like metaphors pop into your head. They’re like the Clark Kent and Superman, right? They’re two sides of the same human, and they’re both out championing, uh, you know, their, their cause and they’re working together. So, uh, I, it’s, there are closer ties than you might initially think.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah, I, I thought this blog was just so interesting and, and we’ll talk more about it, but, uh. You know, when I think about marketing’s job, marketing’s job is all about, of course, making sure that revenue is strong, making sure that we have margins so we can, you know, do our mission. And also often getting tasked with things like shifting payer mix.
[00:05:00] And on the managed care side, same thing, right? Making sure our margin is strong, making sure that we have relationships with the payers that allow us to have the right payer mix. So to your point, Kate, it’s like the same, it’s the same objectives, but done in very different ways.
Kate Caverno: Marketing gets all the, the attention and the glory like Superman and Clark Clint is, is still there, right? Managed care behind the scenes, getting those strong contracts and, uh, making it happen. So both really critical to the, a successful organization.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah. Awesome. Um, okay, so your Superman analogy actually maybe, uh, is a good little segue here. Kate, I know you know, you know, you’ve been on the show before. We love to talk about pop culture. We love to kind of share before we get into the, the geeky finance and payer provider details, we love to just kind of, uh, see what, you know, what are you doing outside of work?
What are you leaning into? Um, I think you had shared that there’s some really interesting shows and movies here that you’re watching. Uh, so what have you been watching recently?
Kate Caverno: Was elbow deep. [00:06:00] In the beast in me on Netflix. I don’t think I’ve ever binged anything faster. It was so good. It’s Claire Danes and Matthew Reese and Jonathan Banks, and I’m sure other, oh, Brittany Snow. How could I forget? Um, so cool cast and it’s just gripping from start to finish. I think there’s only eight episodes, so it’s not crazy, but, um, really, really fascinating. seen it?
Stephanie Wierwille: I’m, no, I have not. And I’m adding it to my holiday binge watch list. Uh, ’cause it sounds really interesting.
Kate Caverno: must.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah. I think you and I both watched Wicked For Good. Right.
Kate Caverno: did, and I think we have slightly different opinions.
Stephanie Wierwille: Let’s debate.
Kate Caverno: You first
Stephanie Wierwille: Um, I loved it. I’m a big wicked fan. Um, I. I think you and I both are big wicked fans, so that is where we agree. Um, but I Felt Wicked For Good was just lovely. [00:07:00] Um, I really love the cinematography of it, the storyline, of course the acting. I’ve been especially nerding out afterwards on how it was shot.
So I think that’s what’s getting really, really interesting is seeing all the background commentary. They’ve done a great job from a marketing perspective of sharing, like, here’s the costume designer and here’s their thoughts. Here’s the hair and makeup, here’s cinematography. Breaking down the scenes in a really interesting way and kind of going back to movie one as well and doing that there.
So I think it’s just sucked me in. Um, what was, what was your take?
Kate Caverno: I also loved the cinematography. I thought it was beautiful. The costumes were gorgeous. Of course, Cynthia and Ariana can sing the phone book and I’d listen, and uh, they’re just amazing. And I, uh. Honestly, I thought the acting was great too. I just, I don’t know. I, so I’ve seen the musical of the stage production.
I’ve seen it on Broadway, I’ve seen it in London. I’ve seen it more times than anyone should see a single production. But I, that, I love it, but I’m [00:08:00] not saying that makes me an authority, but I do feel like I have the context in the stage production, galinda and Alphabet, know, they’re like, they’re tight. Together no matter what. Um, and I felt like in the movie, I wasn’t, I just didn’t have that same bond between them. And they got to like the, song for good and I was like, well, these people don’t even like each other. Why? You know, it’s supposed to rip your heart out and be gut wrenching that they’re never gonna spoiler alert, see each other again.
Right. Um, and, and. I just, it left me lacking a little bit.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah, I can see that I can. That I think as always the, the movie and the Broadway show or the stage production or even book, right? Uh, there was, it started with a book,
Kate Caverno: it sure did.
Stephanie Wierwille: um, very long time ago and [00:09:00] you know, every one of them is different. And so it’s always, there’s always that little tiny bit of down when you know the background and you know the, you know the details, but.
Kate Caverno: great. I’d watch it again, but you know, as the diehard it and you too, like I just, I wanted, I wanted it to be perfect.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah, I enjoyed all the additions and the little Easter eggs and the Wizard of Oz Easter eggs especially. So that was fun.
Kate Caverno: Yeah.
Stephanie Wierwille: Okay, so let’s get into it. Um. This is fun for me, uh, is our first headline, I think is fun. Maybe not wicked for good level, but, um, Becker Hospital Review shared a list of 82 health systems and they were the, the, I don’t know if they were necessarily the top, but in terms of those that have strong operational med metrics, strong financial performance, strong positions, strong margins, um.
So we did a little dive into what are the themes, what are the patterns? I think the point of [00:10:00] this, I’ll just say it up front, caveat. The point is not to be like, oh, this is a playbook for health systems to go u no. Like obviously a lot of these things have com have, um, you can’t necessarily control some of them, right?
Some of them are based on the market, some of them are based on historical, all kinds of different things. But just for sheer interest, I’ll run through these themes. Not all of them, but some of them. And then Kate, I wanna hear your take. Um, so I think the first one is one that is not really controllable and that is the market.
What market are you in and what is the demographics of the market and what is the payer mix of the market very relevant to today’s conversation. Um, so some of those things, you know, might just be dependent on geography or region or demographics, but really, really play into how strong margins can be and commercial payer mix specifically.
And along with that. What is the market dominance of scale? So I think, of course, marketers are always working towards this one, making sure that the health system is the market leader, but that takes time, um, and scale plays into operations as well and [00:11:00] into the whole strategy, uh, behind things, service line mix.
Revenue diversification are the next two. I love the revenue diversification theme because I think that’s so fascinating. It doesn’t just mean what service lines are you focused on. It means also what are the other things, um, that maybe play into how you generate revenue, um, m and a, which I know is also your world, Kate.
And then a big, big theme right now is. Innovation, but also workforce efficiency, workforce being the highest line item in terms of expenses. And so how is the system set up operationally to be able to make sure that, um, that they have a scalable workforce and that they have the right mix of employed versus, um, you know, locums versus, you know, other types of, uh, you know, workforce.
So, let me stop there. What’s your take here?
Kate Caverno: It’s an impressive list, right? 82. Systems that they consider strong. I think we, you know, strong with an asterisk, right? What does strong, equal, [00:12:00] um, and strong for not-for-profit systems versus strong in the context of any other industry, right? Like. A, a health system is considered strong when the operating margins are in the neighborhood of three to 5%, maybe 8%.
Meanwhile, you’ve got, like, you know, Amazon at 10% this year and apple’s at 26%, right? So like it’s all in context. And even if you look at your own personal finances, right? Like your, your financial advisor would tell you to save 10 to 15% of your income, right? Like, so that’s. What you need to have cushion and save for a rainy day and, and all of that.
But the average health system is at one to 2% and strong is at 8%. So like, it’s all relative. But I mean the, the commonalities you pointed out. Whether it’s, you know, they’re looking for, for, they’re [00:13:00] looking for stability, right? That’s the underlying, whether it’s m and a or the workforce efficiency, or their service line mix.
It’s all in this. Search for do we anticipate the future? Create stability for our, for our people and for the communities that we serve and not overextend ourselves. ’cause we really can’t afford that. Um, how do we maintain, you know, being a top place to work and all of those things. It’s just really complex and complicated.
So for these systems who. Are managing to be at, you know, somewhere in the five to 8% range. for them. I mean, it’s, it’s a tough world out there.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah, it is. It is a tough world and. I think that’s probably why Becker’s published this list at the moment they published is because there is all that conversation in terms of, to your point, you know, the [00:14:00] margins that are even strong are not that strong. Um, and so many systems are operating in the red, especially the smaller, um, rural systems or even hospitals.
And the ones that are strong, three to 5%. That’s enough to grow, that’s enough to scale, that’s enough to, you know, continue expanding. Um, but it’s not enough to do every single thing I just listed out on. It’s not enough to like invest in innovation. It’s not enough to maybe hire the talent you fully need, especially when that talent doesn’t even exist, because then what you have to do is go create new talent and that’s expensive.
So, um, the lack of capital is a struggle no matter where you fall on this list of strength. And I think marketers, communicators and payer provider, um, you know. Type of folks all play a role in the strength.
Kate Caverno: Yeah, absolutely. back to that, that blog, right of the, the mixture of managed care plus marketing, how do you talk about the financial. Stability and headwinds that you’re facing while [00:15:00] also providing high quality care and attracting top talent and expanding your reach and supporting rural systems and you know, all of the things that people expect from a strong health system. But also not position yourself, you know, for your next negotiation to have the payer say, well, clearly you don’t need our help.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yes. That, that, that. Well, yeah. Let’s dig into that maybe a little bit later, because I think that’s super important point, which is even if, let’s say you’re at the top of this list, like, ah, that’s not really a. Good thing. Sometimes in some contexts, you know, it’s not a good thing sometimes in terms of being seen as a nonprofit, it’s not a good thing sometimes in terms of how you market and how much you spend on marketing and how you’re negotiating with payers.
And so it’s just like, it’s such a tough world because we’re not Oreo, we’re not Nike, and we can’t, you know, just, just spend,
Kate Caverno: Well, and your
Stephanie Wierwille: um,
Kate Caverno: is being called into question every other[00:16:00]
Stephanie Wierwille: yes.
Kate Caverno: Whether it’s by the local, state, government, or federally. I mean, it’s. Yeah, you, you need enough to survive, but not too much that you get scrutinized for it.
Stephanie Wierwille: Goldilocks. Yeah. Okay. Next headline. Um, I’ll let you unpack this one. So the headline is, uh, from Healthcare Dive, and it was an article that just came out around why Medicare Advantage contract negotiations are getting heated. So, Kate, for those in the room maybe who are not living in your world every day, first of all, if you can give us just the teeniest teeniest overview, Medicare Advantage, what’s important about that?
Why does it matter? And then what’s getting heated?
Kate Caverno: So Medicare Advantage, um, is a tech. A commercial plan. Um, but it’s, it’s a, it’s an, a secondary option to traditional Medicare. So the, which is government backed, right? So the government has set a, a rate for what they’ll reimburse for people who [00:17:00] to take up. Medicare plans. Um, there’s also a supplement plan that you can get that will cover your pharmacy and things like that. Um, but, but payers have done a really good job of, of marketing this plan that is supposed, it’s got the word advantage in it. It must be great, right? Um, but typically what it means is. that you have a more narrow network. You don’t have access to all the same providers as you would if you had traditional Medicare. Um, you, you might not have a premium or a, a copay, um, which is great, but because your, uh, access is limited, uh, you also are probably required to have a primary care physician. You also may be, uh, subject to prior authorizations and, uh, that those may be denied. so it’s just, you know, a little less hassle upfront.
Seems great. Also comes with a Silver Sneakers program, right? You can get a [00:18:00] pedometer, um, but in the long term might not actually be as great a plan for you as a patient. Um, then on top of that, for, from a provider lens or, um, as a negotiator, right there. Huh. Payers have said, well, the government will pay you, let’s say, 80 cents on the dollar for what it actually costs to provide care. We’re gonna bring what we’re gonna take, we’re actually gonna offer you less than that. In many cases, what we’re seeing as we’re negotiating or helping our clients negotiate, they’re, they’re being offered less than the, than the rate at Medicare, of traditional Medicare, um, because of the volume that. They’re promised to bring, and it’s a, it’s, again, it’s a double-edged sword because they’ve created all of the volume, they’ve created a lot of people who want a Medicare Advantage plan. So we as a system don’t wanna say no [00:19:00] to them. We don’t wanna be out of network with a net, a Medicare advantage plan, because that’s a lot of people that. We can’t take care of. and that number of people is growing. 10,000 Americans every single day are becoming Medicare eligible, and they will continue until 2030. So we’ve talked about the, the Medicare gap for 10 years more. Um, and it’s only gonna get wider as a result of volume alone, patient volume.
But add to that policy changes that are coming from the government via the one big beautiful bill. anticipate there will be cuts to Medicare Medicaid funding, which means that the cost of providing care for these patients is, is going up the rate of reimbursement is going down. So what we end up is with this sort of stalemate where both payers and providers are sort of looking at each other like. We don’t really care if we’re in network on this. We’re [00:20:00] losing money and we have all these patients and they’re buying it, but we pay a lot of money for, for care, for older patients. Um, so yeah, take it, leave it. We don’t really care. And, you know, all these patients are being caught in the middle. It’s, it’s really tough.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah. Is really, I mean this is at the heart of our main topic today too. So this is like negotiations are heating up across the board. Um, and I think what you just said really sums up probably what we’re seeing walking into 2026, which is the cost of care is rising and the negotiations are getting tougher and tougher and, you know, there are, you know, reimbursement rates that are not what they should be.
Right. And so. Maybe just kind of take me through as we walk into 2026, how are you seeing this play out at a macro level? Um, so beyond Medicare Advantage, even what’s happening in the realm of either negotiations or reimbursement rates that kind of tie into this larger theme of [00:21:00] like this mismatch of the cost of care versus how much is being paid.
Kate Caverno: So, I mean, Medicare Advantage is going to continue to be a point of friction for a lot of systems and for payers, particularly those in more rural areas where the population is, uh, skews more toward the Medicare age range. Um, and where there aren’t other. Providers in the region to take care of those patients.
You won’t have that option. But we are also gonna see, we saw this with Humana, um, for profit payers are able to just exit that market. Unlike a health system where you’re planted where you are, this is the geography you are playing with, or, or caring for. The payer can just say, eh, I think, we’ll, I think we’ll go.
I, we, this market’s not for us. We’ll go somewhere else. Um, so we’re seeing that on the MA side, but then with commercial plans, we don’t like to, to use the word [00:22:00] subsidize, right? We don’t like to talk about how commercial insurance subsidizes government payers and, and Medicare advantage included. But that’s what’s happening.
And so as the gap. It widens on the MA side or the Medicare side. The. of commercial contracts skyrockets, right? We have to have those strong contracts and payers push that onto employers. Employers look at the rising costs for their premiums of deductibles, and they’re just trying to provide, you know, good benefits for their employees, and that’s becoming harder and harder, and most health systems don’t really have a strong employer relationship. Path. So the conversation around these commercial and uh, negotiations is need better rates. Meanwhile, we’re building the fancy [00:23:00] new tower and we’ve acquired the new system and we, you know, all of those things that we’re doing to ensure our financial future and our stability. Come back around as we sort of talked about at the top to, to hurt us at a negotiation.
So it’s that that trend, I think will continue and, and man health systems have a, an uphill climb to articulate their value and the, the headwinds that they’re facing.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah, I mean, as you’re unpacking this, I think like, gosh, how many times if we all had a. A dollar for how many times people said healthcare is complex, but like what you’re unpacking is why, why that statement has become meaningless is because it’s so complex. It’s just ridiculous. And so, you know, you have, I, I love how you’re saying like, it’s almost like a domino effect, if you will.
Like health systems need, need strong margins in order to survive, literally. Serve their patients. Um, and [00:24:00] again, strong does not mean strong in other industries. You already covered that, right? So therefore they need relationships with payers. Payers, you know, gotta be payers. We have a whole piece we talked about earlier, good people, flood system,
Kate Caverno: have
Stephanie Wierwille: know, they’re.
Right. They’re doing what they’re doing to stay in the system. We could talk all about that on a separate conversation. Um, but so therefore, you mentioned they sort of push it off to employers and have to make their own business decisions. And now employers, they’re like, it’s almost like everyone who can is wanting to get out of the game where the game does not serve them.
Kate Caverno: Yeah.
Stephanie Wierwille: are the only ones who cannot get out of the game
Kate Caverno: Yep.
Stephanie Wierwille: if they do, and we see. See this all the time. When they close, then people are left with zero care and now you have a collapsed system. So I didn’t mean to go down the full complexity rabbit trail, but I think um, the challenge is, you know, everyone is squeezed by the system having to do what they have to do.
So maybe with that said, [00:25:00] Kate, what do you think can be done in 2026? What should health systems be thinking about either in terms of how to unpack these trends further, or what do they need to do?
Kate Caverno: It’s complicated, Stephanie? Um, no, it’s, um, it’s
Stephanie Wierwille: It’s complex, right?
Kate Caverno: uh, the, the, the marrying between. The managed care and the marketing, I, I keep saying it, but it’s really critical and I saw a, a LinkedIn post today. I won’t name the system, but they did a really interesting thing that I haven’t seen a health system do, which was to talk about their cash on hand and why it’s, they’re not-for-profit system and they need. Reserves and those reserves help them to pay their employees when COVID comes. Right? And their, their revenue stream is, which is based on sick care primarily, is completely disrupted. Um, and they need. They need to. You mentioned sort of those other revenue streams. I [00:26:00] think, um, there are health systems out there that have AI and, uh, innovation labs where they’re backing things that are not even healthcare related, but because we know so many innovations have, you know, sprung up and then they without meaning to have healthcare implications.
So backing those things is actually only. A, a, a pathway to profit, but also could change the game in healthcare. Um, so I think just having conversations about these headwinds in new and. they’re not even that bold, but real transparent ways, whether that’s posts like LinkedIn like I saw today, or, know, having conversations with your chambers of commerce and getting in front of employers to say, Hey, uh, you know, we know your.
Payer is telling you that they’re saving you X [00:27:00] dollars, uh, a year by enrolling your, your employees in whatever plan. But here are the ways that we as the health system are saving you money and by, uh, you know, being a, a low cost provider by making you know, certain measures that, that make our care more affordable. Um. Are, are there just conversations that we’re not taking the time to have right now?
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah. This brings us to, I think, a really interesting discussion, maybe even debate, um, which is how much should health systems take on the responsibility to have those conversations? Um, and the way you outlined them. Those conversations can be everything from. You know, kind of sharing what does it take to make healthcare possible in this country?
It can be lawmaker discussions, it can be community leaders, it can be consumer discussions. Um, I don’t know. I would love your take. Kate. What do you think? Do you think it’s possible? And if so, [00:28:00] what are the starting steps?
Kate Caverno: The optimist in me says it has to be possible. Um, and I, you know, no one is coming to save us. The advocacy groups who are out there are trying, the hospital associations are trying, but there’s no one size fits all. And so you end up with sort of a vague attempt at explaining the complexities that are not specific to your system and what your patients need from you. So, but, but there’s historically been sort of the. Reticence maybe to talk about these headwinds and the challenges because we’re not for profit. We’re not supposed to talk about finances, and it feels like we’re beating our chest when we do. Um, or like we’re crying poor. know, when you’re either in the camp of the 82 on the list who are strong performers and, and talking, [00:29:00] as you said, talking about that can be and somewhat dangerous.
Um. And the folks on the, the lower end feel like they’re crying poor, but they’re, I mean, the, the truth is that most systems are less than a year away from closing if things stayed the same. Right?
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah.
Kate Caverno: real financial risk to not having these conversations and nobody is coming to save us.
Stephanie Wierwille: Absolutely. Yes. Nobody is coming to save us that. Ooh, that’s something to sit with. That’s something to sit with. Um, and really sit in for a second. Um, when I think about just the state that we’re in, I mean, healthcare is all over the news. It’s all over. You know, it’s been a huge policy topic. It is on top of minds for consumers.
And I actually have some fresh off the press data. Um, some studies we’ve been running at BPD. Uh, and one of [00:30:00] the recent ones, I think we talked a few episodes ago about how consumers really feel about healthcare marketing. Um, and we talked about that and what was interesting there was when people were asked, what kind of marketing message are you not receiving from health systems, but you would like to, the number one answer shocked me, and it was information about laws that impact healthcare.
And the number four answer was information about navigating health insurance. So that coupled with some other data that we, um. We got, uh, where consumers seem to really understand to some degree the challenges in healthcare. Um, there was another survey we ran that showed us that consumers, they understand health.
They don’t understand health system finances, but they understand like staffing shortages. They understand some of this insurance complexity. So I wonder, I wonder, have we treated consumers like they’re dumb for too long? Like have we just thought. Oh, this is too much to break down. This is too complicated.
And I’m not saying we need to unpack everything, but [00:31:00] I just, I know your team has done a lot of work of helping consumers be on the side of health systems, and you all have been incredibly successful in that. Um, is there any learnings you have from that work that you think could apply in 2026 broadly?
Kate Caverno: I mean, I think. I think we have sold consumers short. some degree, I think, you know, I was having a conversation the other day with a friend who is not in the healthcare industry, and he said something like, um, are there, are there changes happening in healthcare that, I mean, my copay went up dramatically and, and what I’m paying for healthcare today is. Crazy. And, and with all sincerity and was really looking for what’s, happening and, you know, live, eat, live, eat, sleep, breathe this all day. And I was like, what do you mean you don’t know what’s happening? Um, but he was truly hungry to, for that information and to better understand it. Um, I think [00:32:00] it’s something that we all. Experience, you go to the doctor, whether it’s for you or your parents or your kids, or, you know, we have these encounters and we feel helpless during them because we don’t understand the system. So I, I, yeah, I think people have the capacity to understand this. If, if I can understand it, somebody else can understand it.
Right. Um, and it’s, I do think that it is. Part of the health system’s job, not their whole job, but we have to show up to educate our patients and consumers a way that is, you know, a approachable but factual and doesn’t hide behind. We’re okay and everything’s sunny and rosy, and we do amazing things for our community.
Yes, we do, and we do that despite. Delayed [00:33:00] payments from payers and despite policy changes that are trying to cripple us at every turn, and, and there are real reasons for hospitals closing or services shutting down, or, you know what the long waits in your er, there’s,
Stephanie Wierwille: Yep.
Kate Caverno: reality behind that.
Stephanie Wierwille: Whew. Wow. Um, this is a great conversation. I think in the last minute or two, Kate, if, if we think about 2026, all these themes together that we’ve talked about, if I am a health system and I have $1 to spend, where do I spend it?
Kate Caverno: I would go
Stephanie Wierwille: What do I spend my one hour?
Kate Caverno: I would go talk to your employers. hear from payers. At least once a year, twice a year as they’re picking out their plan and learning about how the plan is saving them and their [00:34:00] employees, all kinds of money. Um, but they very rarely hear from health systems. And the real, the truth is, if you, if you’re sitting in a negotiation and you have a handful of big, moderate size employers who can. Step in and be on your side and talk to the payer about why it’s important for your health system to stay in network. That is gonna be biggest mover you have patients. Uh, I hate to say it this way, but their, their voice is too small. It’s one at a time versus an employer that represents. A hundred, a thousand, 10,000, um, you’re at your, the bang for your buck is gonna go a lot further talking to and gaining employer trust than focusing on the patient community.
Stephanie Wierwille: That’s great. [00:35:00] Um, I think that’s really important as people finalize, hopefully they’re finalizing, uh, 2026 planning and thinking about audience prioritization and there’s so many audiences to talk to. Um, but I rarely see employer audiences top of the list, especially on the marketing communications. I see, I see.
You know, employees, I see, you know, policy makers, but not employers. So thank you for raising that. Um, thank you for joining. Yeah, this was a great conversation. I feel like we could go on all day. Kay. And we should probably have, yeah, we should probably have follow ups. We should probably double click into some of these things and maybe monitor how things go over next year.
Kate Caverno: Let’s do it.
Stephanie Wierwille: All right, so thank you everybody for listening. Um, let us know your thoughts if you’ve got ’em. Um, share the show with friends and colleagues. Give us a review, a rating. We love all of that. Don’t be satisfied with the normal. Of course, always push the no normal. Always push into the complexities that Kate just unpacked, [00:36:00] and we’ll talk to you soon.
