Stephanie Wierwille: Welcome to the No Normal Show, brought to you by BPDA marketing services firm that delivers the future to healthcare’s leading brands. This show is where we leave all things status quo, traditional old school, and boring in the dust, and celebrate the new, the powerful, the innovative, the bold, all focused around the future of healthcare, marketing and communications. I’m Stephanie. We will, SVP of Engagement here at BPD, and I’m joined by Chris Bevolo , chief’s Transformation Officer. Hi Chris. It’s great to be back with you all again.
Chris: Yes, welcome. Back. It’s gonna be a fun one. Today’s gonna be a fun one.
Stephanie Wierwille: I’ve had so much fomo. I’ve been out and about, um, for various work travel and also some fun travel. And I’ve had so much FOMO the last few weeks as you all have done the episodes
Chris: Well, you’re back. You’re part of the scene now. Everybody’s gonna have FOMO for you.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yes. Yes. Um, and
Chris: for Stephanie.
Stephanie Wierwille: And hello Des. Good to be back with you again. Um, we have Desiree Duncan with SVP of Health Equity and Inclusion. Hi.[00:01:00]
Desiree Duncan: The trio, we’re back together again. Yay.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yay. We have a long agenda today. Um, and actually we have a, a pretty pretty, um, uh, packed main topic that we’re really excited about. We’ve kind of been waiting to release it for a little while. Um, but today our agenda includes a quick touch on aura’s new brand campaign Aura Ring. Um, has a brand campaign out that has been, uh, all over the news for good reasons, and then.
our main topic is a hot debate around the era of brand. Is brand building dead? Is brand over or is it stronger than ever before? we’ll kick that around based on some, uh, debates that have been out there, but a first, a few little items to make note of, uh, a quick reminder, our future of the CMO report is out now. We hit that in a few episodes ago, but you can download it in our show notes. It’s still available. Um, and so to [00:02:00] our show notes. To grab that future of the CMO report and find out all the trends that are happening in, uh, in our world. Secondly, a brand new report is out hot off the press called Good People, flawed Systems, focused on some really interesting new research around the payer provider space.
So we’ve dug deeply into. The world of payers and health insurers to figure out what’s, um, you know, what’s going on in that space. And you can find that at bpd healthcare.com/insights. And then, as always, if you can’t get enough of the no normal show, be sure to subscribe to our newsletter. The no normal Rewind, which always recaps these discussions and gives us, gives you some extra insights you won’t find anywhere else. So with that, uh, let’s jump into our first topic here. So I’m gonna turn it to Des to give a little commentary on this, but I’ll just, uh, give the headline here, which is Aura Ring. Uh, launched a new brand campaign that’s called. Give us the finger. So if you haven’t seen it, what that means is, [00:03:00] um, the finger that you wear your aura ring on, typically the index finger. Um, aura ring based their whole campaign around that, but in a really fun, interesting way, um, where they highlighted older adults living their best lives wearing aura rings. So, Des, I know that you took a look at the spot, um, and really, uh, had some interesting comments on it. What, what did you think?
Desiree Duncan: Yeah, it was, uh, I know that the premise is kind of on this, like if you know, you know, and almost like a connection to like community, like being in community together. Like we have our rings, Which in a way is kind of brand thing will like lead into our conversation later, but this idea of kind of like, um, flagging or signaling to each other. Um, but given the fact that there is a focus on like, um, as you age, it’s almost like kind of given the finger to that. So like the, the commercial has these images of. You know, older folks who are out doing these adventurous thing, they’re doing, they’re [00:04:00] climbing mountains. They’re, you know, tackling and beating everybody at chess, I guess. Um, but this was actually something really interesting that I ran across. And, um, this guy was talking about how. in the Western society is very much different than in other, um, communal cultures. Um, where here in the US we’re very much focused on like independence and like, you can do all these things and you should be, you know, going out and like tackling the world.
You know, you still can at that age, which like love. Absolutely. And fact, I’m doing my calisthenics so that I can stay mobile. Um, but. There is something to be said about like that need to lean in on each other and that having community and not just so much focusing on like this independence, like we like the face facts.
Like as we get older, we are going to need people, we need each other and community. I’m even remembering some stories like coming outta Chicago, uh, [00:05:00] around how basically, uh, during some of those. Crazy, like heat waves, like older Chicagoans were able to survive because neighbors were checking in on them because they had a relationship with their neighbor. Um, but yeah, just, I don’t know, just whenever there’s always kind of conversation around, um, aging and getting older and like how we look at it and like, maintain your independence. But it’s also about like finding that communal nature. I don’t know. I know I’m just like totally like ranting here, but.
Stephanie Wierwille: I, I love the, the deeper cultural meeting that you pulled out of that. Um, yeah. What I loved about this, uh, this, this campaign is it just really has that, you know, ethos, that spirit of, of older adults, just devil may care. I don’t give a bleep just like I’m living my best life and it’s a long life because of, you know, my, my health focus and my wearable. Um, but you know, it just has that spirit of. Age is just a number, and 70 is the new 30. Uh, and it was the [00:06:00] music, the texture, the visuals, all of that contributed to it in a really interesting way. So props to Aura.
Chris: Well, as the older person in this room, I’m all for 50. Is the new 30 or what? I don’t think 70 is the new thirties. A little bit of a stretch, but um, I’m all for the rebranding of old Age. Since it’s around the corner, I. Let’s, let’s go. Like, I like that is some what I’m not. Well, I get a, a RP mailings, so that’s old
Desiree Duncan: You
Chris: me.
Desiree Duncan: up for A A RP at any age. FYII actually have a membership ’cause discounts.
Chris: I don’t feel old. That’s the point. Right. But it is, I mean, I, I hear the finger a little different than what you’re talking about Des and it’s what you’re saying. Stephanie, kind of like old people in the United States have always been kind of like. Discarded, I guess is the best way to put it historically.
’cause they’re not productive. ’cause it turns out that all we care about is money. So if you’re not productive, go away. [00:07:00] Um, and so I think like that is changing and any effort to make 60, the new 40, I’m all for it. Let’s go. I might buy an aura for that reason, and then now I would be, I’d be reflecting what Des is talking about.
So I would be showing people. I, here’s my finger. Look at my finger.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah. we’ll get you an aura. Join, join, join the, the data club. Um, but
Chris: Isn’t it redundant with a, isn’t it redundant with an Apple watch though? Do I need both of those? I have an Apple watch.
Desiree Duncan: You
Chris: Oh, okay. Okay.
Stephanie Wierwille: both of them.
Desiree Duncan: You need the chip in the back of your ear as well.
Chris: I also have the, I also have the glucose monitor. Like I’m gonna be like Cyborg.
Desiree Duncan: Wired. Wired in.
Stephanie Wierwille: Bionic man. Um, okay. I have to very quickly double down on 70 is the new 30 because if anyone’s paying attention to Chris Jenner recently, she’s 69 and she looks like she’s 25. She’s younger now than all of her [00:08:00] daughters, and she’s gorgeous and beautiful and absolutely living her best life. And I am on the 70 is the new 30 train. So
Chris: But that’s, oh gosh, this is for another podcast. Like I haven’t seen her, but like, you know, who’s gonna get to. B 70 is the new 30 is gonna be limited to those with some coin, so I don’t like that standard, but for another show.
okay, let’s go on to our main topic and we’re. Good time. So I’m really excited we’re gonna be able to really dig into this one. Um, so a few weeks ago, Chris, I think you had found or heard, uh, where Scott Galloway had started this hot debate and he started it at Cannes, at the Cannes Lions uh, festival, which is a really interesting place to start this debate. But essentially he argued that the era of brand is dead down with brand building. We don’t need it anymore. It’s. Over. I think his official words were, it’s over. So what he argued was that, um, you know, [00:09:00] back in the day of the original brand building era, uh, it was all about having a mediocre commodity product wrapped in a sexy brand. Um, so especially think about like CPG retail, right? Like, we all have the same product, but we’re gonna brand it differently. But now his argument is that with the social graph, with Reddit, with. Google, you can, you could look anything up and, you know, find the best products. So his example was, he’s like, when I travel, you know, I used to just lean back on Marriott or Hilton or whatever the brand was I that I knew.
Stephanie Wierwille: But now when I travel, I can find a boutique hotel. That’s really interesting, really unknown. You know, that has a five star rating on Google reviews and I don’t have to fall back on brand anymore. And so I’m smart enough now with all this data and social information and I can find the own thing. So he says Product is the new black and brand is passe. Um, and so, you know, in a very Scott Galloway fashion, he really, um, you know, kind of double down on this and used [00:10:00] words like over and passe and, and products in the new black. And what happened was. It lit up LinkedIn, right? All of LinkedIn went like, oh, hold on. And it started this big debate after can, um, and so, you know, that’s just a quick little highlight, I’m sure.
We’ll, we’ll pull in more as we talk about what, what Scott said and we found some other examples too that are, are really emphasizing both sides of this trend. But I’m just gonna pause there. ’cause Chris, you found this, so I wanna hear a little bit of, you know, what your first thought was when you found it, and what are some things that that.
Resonated or not with you?
Chris: Oh my gosh. So I’m gonna try to get through this so I don’t take up the entire show. Because I felt like I could, um. And, you know, I, I think first of all the, the, the can comment was from 2023, but he’s been repeating it recently. So like it’s, it’s, he continues to kind of espouse this. Uh, and I feel like there’s a number of things that have to be put on the table first.
Like, I love Scott Galloway. I listen to him in multiple [00:11:00] podcasts. I’ve got his books. Um. And I really appreciate some of his social takes of late, where he stands up for those who need a voice, particularly in terms of like incoming quality and, and all of that. But he is wrong a lot and that’s just what happens when you try to have an opinion on everything.
I’m well aware of that myself. Um, I’m just surprised a little bit on how off he is here because he is a brand expert and I’ve taken his brand courses and he doesn’t really hit the same kind of note in those, um. And so, uh, just a couple of things. Like he’s right about some of this. Right before there was cable, before there was the internet, before there was social media back in the seventies, the eighties even, um, advertising did drive brands.
So Coke is the number one cold in the world because of its advertising, not because of its taste. Because time and time again, for years, research would prove that people prefer Pepsi over Coke. Uh, so that’s right. [00:12:00] But from there it’s all downhill. I. Um, and it’s frustrating because we keep coming back to this.
Um, and because I’m an old, we talked about that a second ago. I went back ’cause I know I’ve ranted on this before. I have blog paths in the past before. So like you can go all the way back to like 2000 for those of you that were. Around in the business world when it was a.com era and oh, brands are dead.com.
You know, like the internet’s here, we don’t need brands anymore. Um, I found an article in 2009. Our brand’s Dead for Good from Fast Company. Uh, 2019. Branding is dead. Consumer experience is king. Fast Company. Again, I don’t know what fast company’s problem is with brands, but it’s like once a decade, right?
So here we are again. Uh, what I would say. Is that what we really have here is a failure to communicate. Because when Scott talks about this and there’s a, we can post like his rant on it in a podcast that he did. He really means advertising. [00:13:00] He doesn’t mean brand. And this is what’s a little surprising ’cause he knows the difference, but he’s just saying brand over and over.
Um, and the, the thing here is brand is not advertising. Right. It’s not a logo, it’s not design, it’s not all those things. Brand is the differentiated value that your audiences give. Your product, service organization, that’s what it is. So to say. Brand is dead and it’s replaced by consumer experience, like, um, fast Company said, or you know, it’s product brand is dead.
And now it’s product is like saying cars are dead. Automobiles are the future. Consumer experience drives brand, product drives brand. Right. So I, I just think like, there’s more I gotta say, and I’m gonna, I, I wanna give you guys a chance to say it, but brand is not dead. Brand will likely never die. Maybe it will.
But it goes to some psychology that just drives human nature that we just can’t get past. [00:14:00] And it goes to a misunderstanding of what brand really is. Brand is driven by all kinds of things. Product, consumer experience, supply chain. He mentions that a lot. Um, word of mouth advertising. Yes, though, probably lesser.
So I think we would all would agree with that. Um, that’s something we’ve been saying forever. Uh, but the power of brand has not. Gone away and brand is not dead. It’s as live and well as important as ever. So I’m gonna stop there. There’s so much more I gotta say, but you guys gotta weigh in here.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah, there’s so much more. And loyalty program, which I would all call brand two even though it’s not ad spend. To your point, Chris. So I just
Chris: It’s where he,
Stephanie Wierwille: in and say,
Chris: yes,
Stephanie Wierwille: even right.
Chris: it’s where he tells on himself. It’s where he is like the best He, I think he even says The best brands in the world don’t advertise. Scott, you just admitted that brand matters by saying the best brands in the world like Netflix, Amazon, and Google. He’s wrong about Amazon. He’s not wrong about Netflix.
Not primarily Netflix didn’t become a household name from advertising, right? Um, doesn’t mean they don’t [00:15:00] advertise, but he’s telling on himself when he literally says, you know, Netflix doesn’t need advertise. It’s the best brand in the world. It’s like, hello, you just called it the best brand. So you can’t say brands are dead.
Brand advertising is diluted. But I don’t know why he isn’t making that more clear.
Desiree Duncan: The fact that we say Amazon like probably every day, like we hear Amazon all day long. That’s brand like you. You
Chris: I.
Desiree Duncan: have to advertise for people to just like. We’re just doing it. We’re living out your brand because we’re saying it and bringing it up every single day. But Christie, your point about like a brand, so much of it as psychology, I think about like as a consumer, you know?
Yeah. We’re not just sitting around thinking about brands, uh, unless you’re a. chasing luxury and you’re always kind of thinking about like what next designer handbag you’re gonna get. but for the rest of us, it’s either just something we kind of do based off of like feelings, familiarity, values, uh, like you mentioned cars. [00:16:00] I. Like, uh, it’s, when we think about the values, we think of brand as like, uh, almost like a, a representation of who we are or how we want the world to see us. So like with cars, like, no, I’m not over here sitting around thinking about Lexus or Toyota all the time, but like when I am thinking about brand, it is from a. I’m about to drop a bunch of money. So let me actually do some research on what brands, like if you, if I haven’t already subscribed to it. So if I’m buying appliances, like yeah, I’m not brand loyal until if I’ve bought a number of those lgs or Samsungs or whatever, then I’m like, okay, like I like TVs, like I go straight Samsung because I’m used to just how the layout of their menu is, and I’ve seen others in their trash. Uh, so like there is that relationship. But I, I see you, Stephanie, you’re like. You got all the things about to jump outta your mouth.
Stephanie Wierwille: Well, you just sparked one more Scott dig I have to make, which is, um, you were talking about brand’s identity and you mentioned cars, and it was really hilarious to me because it was like five minutes after this rant, [00:17:00] he started another rant about, you know, fin financial, um, investing and, um, just being smart financially.
And he recommended, you know, young people should get a Hyundai as a, as a car. Um, instead of spending money on expensive cars. And and went on about it and I thought, okay, so what does that stand for? The brand stands for practicality, right?
Desiree Duncan: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Wierwille: PO Point, point made. So to your point, and, and he also talked about Apple and he went on about how he buys every Apple iPhone and product and, and all about how Apple stock has risen.
And it’s like, hold on, that is brand. And that was five minutes after he made this argument. So yes, does brand is identity, brand is, um, you know, it, it me, it’s a meaning. It’s not a, it’s not ad spend. And that’s a fundamental
Chris: Yeah, and it, he’s also like, again, we don’t mean to pick on Scott because it’s not just Scott Galloway, by the way. Again, fast company. Other people go through this, um. His, his example of when I travel now I have all these tools like Google and [00:18:00] TripAdvisor to find a hotel is not necessarily representative, right?
People do research things. You’re traveling. If you, if you’re traveling to Europe for the first time, you’re going to research things and you won’t be familiar with the brands over there. So you gotta do the research. I can almost guarantee you he automatically picked the airline he is going on. He didn’t research all the airlines.
He flies delta or he flies American or whatever. ’cause he’s probably loyal to it or whatever. So he’s using this like exceptional idea. And it does go to why brands will never die. And it’s the psychology of all of this, right? This goes to human nature. Um, and it’s funny that you mention Apple ’cause one of my favorite stories is back when we ranted about this.
Like, I don’t know, 15, 20 years ago on my first podcast I ever did, and the Fast Company article came up, it must have been 2009, and I remember quizzing our creative director, who is probably 30 something, who is very like proud of the fact that he’s not beholden to brands and he’s an independent guy. And I think for [00:19:00] myself, and you know.
Screw the man. I don’t, you know, I’m not, I don’t, nobody tells me what to do. And I’m like, okay, but what’s your car? And he is like a Nissan Path fighter. I’m like, what was your other car before that? He is like a Nissan Path fighter. I’m like, okay. So you always buy Nissan. You buy like Scott, every Apple.
Everything you own is Apple. So the reason for that is you wanna belong like Des says. But it also goes to this idea that we as humans cannot possibly. Survive in this world by objectively assessing every dang decision that we have. Right? And so the best example of this to me, I said this before, if you see a rattlesnake in your path, what do you do?
Do you stop and go, Hmm, that’s a rattlesnake. I wonder like, is that as dangerous as the the king cobra over here? Whatever. Do you go on your phone and you look at it? No. You jump the hell back. That’s brand. That’s brand, that’s the rattlesnakes brand. Get the hell out of there. Right? I mean, I don’t know what [00:20:00] that is for products.
Maybe that’s Tesla Now maybe Tesla is the, is the Rattlesnake brand. But it’s the same thing in a positive way. You go to the grocery store, you’re gonna evaluate, like, I don’t know, we buy, probably buy 50 things every week at the grocery store. You can evaluate every single one of those, every single time.
Hell no, no. Yeah,
Desiree Duncan: got that kind of time.
Chris: nobody’s got that time or the brain power. We would all just like curl up in the fetal position, right? That’s too much. So I go and buy the same darn orange juice and I buy the same D like there are exceptions. We’re gonna talk about ’em. Um, but we’re never gonna get away from that need to have the shortcut of brand because that’s what we need to function in society.
It’s that simple. It really is that simple. Now let’s give some exceptions where we were like, well, what about this? Or what about that? ’cause I know there are a few like TikTok store. Let’s talk about that, Stephanie. It does.
Stephanie Wierwille: Oh, So yeah, I, I think that one thing that’s really interesting as I think about, I have to think a little bit like you are Chris, about like, historically where we’ve [00:21:00] been and you know, I remember in the late 2010s when everybody, the, one of the big times I remember when. Brand is dead was a big topic, was when performance marketing was hot and it was sort of a new thing and everyone was like hyper targeted.
Social media is a thing. And p and G put all their budget in it. And then lo and behold, several years later came, came back and said, oops, we went too far. And we’ve talked many times about the long and the short of it and how you need both brand and performance. So I think we’ve learned that as an industry, I hope.
However, what’s sort of new to this story in my mind is where we’ve seen really. Interesting case studies of startups, I’ll call them startups or kind of one-off niche products. Being able to close that decision funnel, like awareness, interest, perception. That whole thing is in a way collapsed because a TikTok drop or an Instagram targeting, um, can meet you and you know, you see in your feed or I see in my feed.
Let me use myself. I see in my feed shoes and clothes all the time. [00:22:00] I’ve never heard of the brand before. Never heard of it before, but within five seconds. Ooh, that looks cool. And I buy, why? So, so I think what, you know, there’s a, there’s a ton we could dig into there, but that’s sort of causing this resurgence of, oh, hyper targeting product marketing is now the new thing and you don’t need brand anymore.
Desiree Duncan: When you think about like the reason why you bought, like if you go and look at the grid, like let’s say you saw it on Instagram, you’re looking at the grid, you’re vibing with the grid. That’s all brand I. they’re creating essentially an aesthetic. You subscribe to that aesthetic, so therefore you wanna buy that product.
And like, yeah, you don’t know the brand you like from whatever, and they might disappear tomorrow. But again, they’re kind of creating essentially a brand vibe. And if you subscribe, you buy.
Chris: Uh, there’s two things.
Stephanie Wierwille: Go ahead.
Chris: No, go ahead, Stephanie.
Stephanie Wierwille: Well, just, or better yet, as it comes from an influencer, it comes from somebody you know, so you already know [00:23:00] them. So they’re drafting off of a halo effect, right? Like, I think brand in my mind has to be built over time. Um, but what’s interesting about the social graph is that brand building, maybe arguably could built in different or new ways. Go ahead, Chris.
Chris: No, I was just gonna say, I think again, like. I, if you see, this is my wife, like, I swear to God, every other day there’s something coming from Amazon brand, from TikTok brand. Um, from the TikTok store, right? And so she’s seeing like, I don’t know, I made it up the other day, but like a cat tail straightener.
We have cats, right? So I’m like, why? She doesn’t really get one of those, but that’s what the kind of sh. Stuff she gets, sorry, from TikTok store. Oh, I saw this product where you can straighten your tails, cat. I’m like, what? I have no idea what the brand does and neither does she. Right. So when you’re talking about, oh, those shoes look cool, you’re willing to experiment, but I’m gonna give you the flip side of that.
Our coffee makers. Terrible right now. We need a new one. I am not just buying [00:24:00] some Rando Coffee brand. Coffee machine. It’s gonna last for like three years. I’ll do a little research like Scott talks about in the end, I bought a Keurig, right? Because I’m like, I don’t recognize these other brands. I don’t care how people rate them.
I have no clue and I’m not dropping $200 or whatever it costs for a decent coffee maker. So that’s one thing. The other thing is. With the cattail, straightener, with the things that you’re buying, if those turn up and they’re for, they’re bleepy quality, right? If they don’t fit right, if they fall apart, if they’re trashy, you’re not buying them again.
So again, brand is not just the, the name. You know, it’s what, it’s what fast company was trying to say, and it’s what Scott is trying to say, which is like, it’s the product and it’s the experience. Yes. But that still influences brand, right? Like I’m never buying a Cuisinart coffee maker again, because the darn thing explodes when you make coffee on the inside and you got [00:25:00] wet grounds everywhere.
So. There’s an example of a brand I know, but if you get something from Instagram, you don’t know the name of it, but you’re like, that’s super cool, but then it comes and it’s got like holes in it, like it’s a shirt and it’s got like tears in it. You’re not buying from them again. That’s brand. Yes.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yes. And I think we’re all touching on some, an interesting topic too, that we need to dig into a little bit, which is brand loyalty. So Chris, the point of you’re not gonna buy it again. So the brand loyalty was just tainted des you had some examples earlier of where, you know, brand, brand loyalty is all about that experience and, and, and having it again and again.
So there was an interesting, um, piece that we had found from Bloomberg, which talks about the economic, um, and. The, the, the parallels or, um, kind of differences around how brand loyalty, um, changes in a volatile economic environment. So this example was, um, it was a b book article from April that talked about how younger [00:26:00] generations are now less likely to be brand loyal.
And as prices rise or have risen, risen with tariffs, people will shop around. can debate this and see, you know, see if we agree. Um, but this data showed that, you know, 60% of millennials are brand switchers. 64% of Gen Z are brand switchers. But I think more interestingly, it, it cited that, um, different products have a different, uh, kind of, uh. See different effectiveness. So for example, people would stick with their tobacco brand and they would stick with their personal care products. Um, but less folks would stick with confectionary processed foods, home and household care products. So we can
Chris: Stephanie?
Stephanie Wierwille: falls into that.
Go ahead Chris.
Chris: Yes, we do need to get back to healthcare at some point. What is that research based on? I didn’t read this story. Is it based on consumer surveys? I.
Stephanie Wierwille: Uh, yes.
Chris: Yeah, so throw that thing out with the garbage because people will say they’re not brand loyal. Who’s gonna say, I’m a, I’m a, I [00:27:00] am tied to one brand and I will never change because I’m an idiot.
Or I’m, I can’t think for myself. Or people will say one thing, like, we get this all the time when, when you get surveys back and it’s just like our brand loyalty is down yet, you know, this happens. This happens with pricing in healthcare, so I’m gonna bring it back to healthcare. You go survey consumers.
If that primary care doctor is $50 cheaper than that one, would you switch? Yes. Who’s saying no? Who’s saying, no, I’m going to, I’m gonna intentionally spend $50 more. How many people actually change their primary care doctors on the regular? Nobody. Nobody. If people keep coming back to the same thing over and over, it doesn’t matter what they say.
That is loyalty. For whatever reason, that’s loyalty. I. So I do agree that when there’s economic pressure, you lost your job. You may not buy the fanciest bread anymore. You might buy the cheap bread. That’s fair. Um, you’re still gonna buy the cheap bread you recognize. I. You’re not gonna buy like Joe’s house of bread from like [00:28:00] China.
You’re gonna buy like the market fresh bread from Target, the generic bread. Right? That’s still a brand, right? Um, but I just think like you’ve gotta have a massive grain of salt when people say the things that you just cited, because that’s what we’ve been hearing for years and years. It’s the story I told before.
They’ll say one thing and they’ll do something completely different.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yes. And one more wrench I wanna throw in this, um, is I do think there’s a difference between younger generations and older generations. And just because of the, you know, you learn, you live and you learn, right? So this data is, is really talking about millennials and Gen Z are brand switchers. And here’s my argument, my anecdotal argument, I’ve noticed myself, you know, I used to be a brand switcher when it came to my hairdresser.
I’d always went to a different one. I always went to a different. PCP. So to your point, Chris, I have been to 95 PCPs, and as I’ve gotten older, what I’ve learned and realized is how much that relationship matters. And I’ve become desperate to [00:29:00] have that long-term, solid relationship because it gets more important, right? As something gets more important to you like healthcare, the more important brand loyalty becomes. So I think a lot of these product categories cited in this survey. Tobacco, snacks, confectionary, processed foods. That’s nothing like the importance of healthcare, nor is it including the factors of healthcare like health insurance and location and all that other kind of thing.
Desiree Duncan: It’s like uh, generation rant. It was like so much of this is like, is, uh, attached to the generation. It’s like, it’s more about like stage of life. when you are younger, you are more ex uh, experimental. You’re gonna try all the different things you’ve done or you wanna experience all the things. But then once, you know, as you get older you’re like, okay, I’ve been there, done that.
This is what I know I like and where I’m gonna go. but to your point, Stephanie, about like healthcare and, you know, when we’re thinking about health brands health, you know, what we’re gonna decide on and that like, yeah, the only really factors that change, you know, what, uh, [00:30:00] doctor we go to or a PCP might have to do with if we had to switch insurers or we change jobs and maybe they’re no longer in our network, but otherwise we’re gonna keep because they know us, they understand us, um, that, that there’s that loyalty, there’s that connection through that.
That experience. But then when I think about how, when we’re choosing a health system, um, there’s, when you’ve grown up in an area, you are essentially, you, you’re choosing based off of maybe familial history. Uh, this is where we’ve always gone, or you’re looking at it. If you are moving to a new place, you might be looking at it as a, well, I wanna understand like what this brand represents in the area. And so maybe going to an A MC feels more, uh, connected to like what you value. Or aligns with your values or how you see yourself reflected versus, um, there is this other really great hospital that does just as you know, um, give just as great care. But because it might be seen, quote unquote as a safety net, you don’t want to go there because of how that reflects on you. [00:31:00] Um, that’s always been kind of an interesting thing I’ve thought about as far as like, um, when we’re looking at our health brands and like how we decide what ho which hospital health system we’re gonna go to, but sure there’s other thoughts.
Chris: Yeah, I, I just, I’m the, maybe ’cause I’m the old guy, but I’ve felt this forever. I do, I do have a bit of a devil’s advocate on the generational part of it. I think you’re more likely to say you’re a brand switcher when you’re young, because you’re more likely to say screw the man. Because you’re more likely to feel like I’m independent, I’m on my own.
I’m not beholding anybody. So the fact that, you know, like this, this has been true for every generation. It’s not like, oh, millennials are more brand switcher than Gen X. No. Gen X is the king and queen of giving the middle finger. That’s our whole vibe. So like, it, it, it, that, that is, I think it’s true, but also watch a pack of gen Zers go to the store late at night.
Like they’re, they’re like, Hey, we’re gonna have a gaming night. Let’s go to the store. You think they’re experimenting with [00:32:00] the snacks they’re buying? No, they’re buying the same stuff they love. Because they know they’re not, I’m not gonna like risk buying some new bag of pretzels, but you, like, there’s not, that’s not how it works.
I’m telling you it’s not how it works. So I just think people are more likely to say it. The other thing I’ll say is, and I think you guys have hit this point really well. Um, we get into this discussion like loyal, like, Hey, I haven’t switched my bank since I was 20. It’s Wells Fargo. Wells Fargo’s been through the ringer for all kinds of reasons, but I haven’t switched.
Right. Am I brand loyal to Wells Fargo? Yeah. I like Wells Fargo enough, but there’s plenty of reasons to leave. Why haven’t I? Because it’s really difficult to move all your financial shit. Apple has created the stickiest digital entertainment situation. Like have you have anybody tried to like get all your photos?
Outta iPhoto or all your music out of [00:33:00] what’s now called music used to be iTunes. Good luck to you sir or madam, like very difficult. Am I loyal to to apple? Sure. I like apple’s stuff, but it also is loyalty that I can’t go anywhere and healthcare’s the same thing. Does you hit on this. Like, do I like my health system?
I, I do everything through my health system that I can, primarily because they’ve got all my records. I know where to go. I know it’s covered. Like that has nothing to do with the experience. If the experience was super crappy, then I might make the effort to move all that, but that is really. Hard. So that still counts as loyalty.
That’s still brand loyalty, even though it’s not the fancy things that everybody’s talking about, right? That you lock somebody in, you’ve got ’em loyal for whatever reason. So anyway, I had to get that out there.
Stephanie Wierwille: Absolutely. And I think that goes into maybe our last point here, which is the value of brand. Because if we’re defining brand the way we’ve been, this whole episode, which [00:34:00] is it’s not ad spend, it’s not a logo, it’s not a sign. It is your experience. It’s the message, it’s the value proposition, it’s the user interface.
It’s all these things. It’s the ecosystem model of Apple. Um, then it should be really sticky. At the end of the day, and, you know, hopefully it’s not locking people in against their will, but it’s keeping them for a good reason and it’s having that brand loyalty. Um, and so, you know, brand is, is really something that can be A-A-C-F-O conversation as it’s.
How are we building our brand so that we have a high customer lifetime value? So that, that’s what brand loyalty means. That’s what patient loyalty is all about. Um, and it should lower the cost of customer acquisition. I have to cite, um, this, this person on LinkedIn that I follow, his name is Preston Rutherford, and he shares these almost meme like conversations between A CMO and A CFO. And he just, it’s, it’s beautiful. It’s hilarious. Uh, it’s kind of, um, you know, pared, but it’s so true. And he gets into kind of, you know, the CMO and the CFO [00:35:00] are talking the CFO’s like, let’s just have a higher return on ad spend. Let’s just do more performance marketing and the CMO persuades, the CFO, that actually brand is the most cost efficient, term in the long term way to actually build that financial value. So, um, go check those out. You should follow them. Uh, it’s, it’s hilarious and awesome, but I think really, really true, which is we can’t get addicted to ROAS alone or will over time not be sticky.
Chris: Yeah. I’m gonna share one more story to close out from healthcare, and it’s from way back in the day, but I’ll never forget it. And it was working with a hospital that had a, a really nasty orthopedics group. Orp orthopedists, particularly orthopedic surgeons, have somewhat of a reputation for being kind of jerky.
They’re kind of like the, the jocks of the high school, and they can be, that’s just who they are sometimes. And this group had a. Terrible reputation in the community and the CEO came to the CMO and said, we need to [00:36:00] fix this. We need to run some advertising to fix our brand reputation. And I think that’s a little bit of what Scott’s getting at, which is like, Hey, advertising ain’t gonna do anymore.
Advertising plays a role. I think we all agreed that that role is diminishing if you’re talking about mass advertising. But at the end of the day, brand is that experience. So just keep that in mind. CEOs.
Desiree Duncan: W, why didn’t he just say that?
Chris: What the
Desiree Duncan: just.
Chris: CMOI don’t know. I don’t know why he, he really meant brand advertising, so we might be picking a semantics thing, but, um, I dunno.
He keeps saying brand, brand, brand brands are dead. Brand is dead. It’s not, not what the appropriate definition of brand.
Desiree Duncan: I only, mention it ’cause it feels like you get onto like a slogan or like a phrase and you just like hammer it in without actually thinking about what you’re actually trying to say. You’re just, we’re all [00:37:00] just like sh like yelling cliches at each other. But I digress. I know Stephanie, you’re trying to like end the episode.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yelling cliches at each other is the current cultural currency. Dez?
Chris: Two Nation, two
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah. Okay, we will wrap there. Thanks for the spicy hot takes you all. Um, and thank you to everybody for listening. We wanna hear your spicy hot takes. Send ’em to us at nonormal@bpdhealthcare.com . Download that feature of the CMO report that we mentioned earlier, and please check out the, uh, the new payer provider research, which has some of its own hot takes, which is really interesting. Um, give us a review and rating. We love that mash, that like button, subscribe all the things. And until next time, don’t be satisfied with the normal push that no normal build your brand, and we’ll talk to you next week.
