Behind Closed Doors: Truths, Lies, and the State of Healthcare Politics

Desiree Duncan: [00:00:00] Welcome everyone to the NoNormal Show brought to you by BPD. This is where we leave all things status quo, traditional, old school, and boring in the dust and celebrate the new, the powerful, the innovative, the bold, while delivering the future to healthcare’s leading brands. I’m Desiree Duncan, Vice President of Health Equity and Inclusion, and I’m joined by Stephanie Weirwill, EVP of Engagement.

Hi, Stephanie.

Stephanie Wierwille: Hey, Jess, how’s it going?

Desiree Duncan: Oh, you know, just living that Southwestern dream.

Stephanie Wierwille: Oh, yes, you are.

Desiree Duncan: And we have with us Chris Bevelo, Chief Transformation Officer, uh, quick from a world tour and discovering all the new things while he’s been out. Hi, Chris.

Chris: Hey, Dez. Hi, Stephanie. Good to be back. Good. Good. Good.

Stephanie Wierwille: I

Chris: Hello.

Desiree Duncan: So what’s been, what’s been new, Chris? I know you’ve been out kind of gallivanting, but then also taking in all of the culture. What, what have you discovered in

your, your last couple of weeks?

Chris: Well, I, I missed two podcasts in a row, which is sad. [00:01:00] It’s very sad for me. Um, and I just have three reflections on the last two podcasts. Superbowl, uh, love the Nike spot. Like you guys talked about and also loved, I don’t know if you guys brought it up. I can’t remember the NFL flag 50 spot with Brad and Chad and the women playing like football, I thought it was.

Stephanie Wierwille: We

touched that

Desiree Duncan: We

Chris: Beautiful.

Stephanie Wierwille: it. Yeah,

Chris: Um, and they really had literally had characters named Brad chat.

So I like that. Um, I think actually the Parker Posey commentary, I think he, you like, I, whatever on the, the South Carolinian accent. So I grant you that would, I thought it was South Carolinian, North Caroline.

Desiree Duncan: Tar Heel,

Chris: Oh, that’s [00:02:00] right. That’s right.

Desiree Duncan: and

Chris: but I think,

Desiree Duncan: and

son went to Duke.

Chris: yes, you all, um. You kind of missed the force for the trees on that one.

She is hilarious. If you put her accent aside, dare I say she’s as good as Jennifer Coolidge. I’ll put that right out there and see how you guys react to that.

Desiree Duncan: Yeah, I love

a Parker.

Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah.

Chris: she’s incredible. Did you see, have you seen episode two? No spoiler, but the, but the, where she says that cause she’s constantly taking. Like she’s clearly floating through life on medication and she talks about how she took her medication and then she slept like a corpse and then she gives a little like, like a, like she’s proud of her joke.

Did you catch that? So good. It’s so subtle and so good. Um,

Desiree Duncan: Yeah.

we noted that, thinking that the over exaggeration of the accent and some of the things she’s doing might be a foreshadowing of what the character [00:03:00] will reveal as the

episodes go on.

Chris: you think she’s going to reveal something?

Desiree Duncan: uh, absolutely. Like, a layer was peeled just for this next, this latest second episode, for sure.

Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah, the moment at the table. So, so I was excited to, in the last, last night’s episode of White Lotus 2, and I so related to this when, um, is it

Leslie Bibb that came

over

Chris: Yes,

Stephanie Wierwille: like, Hi, I know you, and Parker Posey was like, Huh? And I

was like, Oh, that is me.

Chris: no way.

Stephanie Wierwille: just completely miss it. But then, but then there was a moment when then you realize like, wait a minute, there’s something deeper here.

There’s a reason why she’s not, you know, leaning in. And then she just made this big thing about it. And yes, Parker Posey is on the surface. She seems super shallow, but you dig three layers deeper to your point does. And there’s something there.

She’s super complex.

Chris: do you think it is? Because there’s a lot of speculation about the [00:04:00] kids and there’s going to something’s going to happen with the kids among the kids. We’ll just leave it there. Do you think like she’s a she’s got some kind of trauma in her past that she’s trying to like? Like, what do you like?

What do you how dark is this going to get? Because that scene was incredible again, where she just blows that woman right off. Stephanie, you would never do that. By the way, even if you didn’t recognize the person you would, you would act like you would act like with some social decorum. She just literally was like, like, what are you doing at my table?

Go away. It was Pretty awesome.

No,

Desiree Duncan: I

Chris: nothing.

Desiree Duncan: kind of

the formula for each season is that each character a layer gets peeled back every single and it gets dark. Uh, it gets dark. very excited to see where

the season goes for sure.

Chris: All right. We can talk. We can,

Stephanie Wierwille: and, and, uh, I guess this family, I think their name is Ratliffs, was their last name? Anyway, in this commentary for, for episode one, they said they’re trying to sort of reenact like a family of monkeys [00:05:00] and like the monkeys are in the background, like this theme. And anyway, so there’s like monkey business.

like there’s something going

Chris: oh yeah. Cause there’s the see no evil here. No evil thing. There’s a scene where they’re all doing that when they’re sitting next to each other.

Yeah.

Stephanie Wierwille: There you go.

Chris: Monkeys. Well, I guess maybe we’re going to go back to like our basic, most basis of instincts are animal selves. All right. We should, we could do a whole podcast on this.

We better skip it. The last thing I’ll say, uh, by the way, is Kendrick Lamar, halftime show. So incredible. Um, I had to listen to the New York Times daily podcast to understand the Kendrick Drake thing because I didn’t really get it, which, which cued me up perfectly for the halftime show. Um, but not enough to realize the power of having Serena Williams, Crip Walk.

Um. Uh, we didn’t get that in my household, but then afterwards on Tic Tac, uh, it was such a joy to see all the [00:06:00] reactions to that and to understand what that was about. So now my kids have helped me build a Kendrick Lamar playlist, which I freaking loving and also Dochi who, if you had asked me who Dochi was, I would have never heard of this person ever.

And now like Nissan Altima, you give it to me. I got it in that playlist. It is so good. It is so good. If I can reliving my. My twenties with maybe better music than the rapid hip hop that was around in the eighties. There’s some good stuff there. Sorry, guys. There’s some good stuff. I see your face. Yeah, I know.

Desiree Duncan: Uh,

Chris: Look, I was, we had like the,

Desiree Duncan: public enemy? Are

Chris: I’m, I’m besmirching the fat boys. I’m besmirching, uh, run DMCs kind of pop stuff, like with Aerosmith, not pure run on DMC. I am not besmirching NWA. Not besmirching real stuff, but look, that wasn’t at my spring break. It [00:07:00] was a lot of run DMC and fat boys. So I don’t think I’m even besmirching.

I’m just saying Kendrick Lamar versus the fat boys game over.

Desiree Duncan: I mean, yeah, of course, but why were you listening to so much fat

boys really out of all

Chris: That’s so much, probably like two songs. Hey, I look, look. Look at the screen. I went to Iowa State University. I don’t know what you would have expected from you back then. Like fat boys was my that was me. Sorry,

Desiree Duncan: wow.

Chris: in the cornfields.

Stephanie Wierwille: This

Desiree Duncan: Okay.

Stephanie Wierwille: Where’s my

popcorn?

This is, this is fun to

Chris: No, I think Des and I are violently agreeing actually

Desiree Duncan: Okay, but did you watch the or listen to that Daily Grind to get the background on Kendrick and Drake’s, uh, Rat Beef before

the Super Bowl or after?

Chris: before. So like the a minor thing. Which I, you know, I wouldn’t have known from a hole in the wall or where he leaves out, um, certified, whatever. [00:08:00] That was incredible. The whole, the whole stadium saying a minor was like, Oh, but again, the tick tock reactions, which I continue to see in my feed, just bring me joy every single time.

It’s so great to watch people freak out

Desiree Duncan: the level of

petty is what always brings

Chris: it is and we don’t have to revisit you guys covered it. Well, I just thought I would share since I’m catching up to you all that now. Um, I have like 40 songs that are pretty amazing that I’m listening to. So

there you go.

Desiree Duncan: that for you.

Chris: Cultural. He said cultural.

Desiree Duncan: I said cultural. And speaking of cultural, let’s jump into our headlines with Duolingos, the owl has died or keeps dying, keeps resurrecting because you’re not keeping up with their lessons. so to give you a little background, in case folks like you, uh, like Chris aren’t aware, um, there was an announcement February 11th that Duolingo declared the duo, [00:09:00] uh, that encou green owl mascot had died in that perhaps he was even, uh, struck by a Tesla cyber truck, which touches on the culture and kind of the sentiment of what people are experiencing today. but this announcement has prompted a mix of humorous. As well

as sympathetic responses.

Chris: don’t think I see how that’s going to work. Yeah. Okay.

Desiree Duncan: trying to get them back onto the app and leveraging their mascots popularity to, you know, boost all of the participation. What are your thoughts on this?

Stephanie Wierwille: I’ll jump in. I am obsessed with Duolingos and their social media presence, and I have been for a long time. It’s [00:10:00] actually, to me, a really good case study. You kind of hinted at it, Des. I’m going to start with a little bit of the background before I get into Duo’s death. But what I think is super smart about the OWL in general is, obviously, their business strategy is all about their recurring revenue, and they can’t have that unless you sign in and do your lessons.

And so the OWL is like this crazy character that

pesters

Chris: Okay. for that.

Stephanie Wierwille: you know, hey, you can save Duo, but the hit by the cybershock thing, the way the death happened, the way that the internet is like planning a funeral, it’s all just. It’s all just so internet culture. Um, and what I like too, I saw [00:11:00] this, I saw this, uh, someone’s take on it where they were sharing, like, it’s, it’s sort of like leaning into the dark side and that’s kind of where we are in culture right now. And that Duolingo is willing to go there and lean into the dark side and, you know, let Duo die this ridiculous death of getting hit by a Cybertruck.

So. Yeah, they’re brave, they’re bold, they can, they can be that way.

Chris: Well, as a former Duolingo user, um, I guess I had not heard that the owl had died. I had not heard that I was dead. The reason for its death, and I had not heard that it’s the internet culture. Um, so, you know, sometimes it doesn’t happen very often. And you guys know that I’m super optimistic and rarely am I cynical.

Um, did this come before or after the death of Flacco, the actual owl? Because if it came after, was that an intentional death? Well done. Well done. You don’t know who Flacco the owl is.

Desiree Duncan: I haven’t

Chris: I

so this is a bit of appropriation. [00:12:00] Okay. Then I think like, maybe they borrowed off the death of an actual owl. Um, look it up.

I’m not even going to give you the backstory to Flacco. That’s a real animal that really died. The people that was beloved. Um, I don’t know how this helps. Like, I am not going to go back in. Um, I tell you what, if they create an app that actually helps me learn Italian after using it for six months before going to Italy and having it not help me one bit, I will pay more attention.

So there. I’m a grumpy old man

Stephanie Wierwille: Fair.

Chris: owls. Like it’s weird to me that they killed their owl and then they blamed it on me. I feel like, I take it personally.

Stephanie Wierwille: So there’s a site, bringback. duolingo. com, and it’s tracking how much people are actually jumping in and doing their lessons. And it’s got countries competing, there’s a whole competition.

It seems to be working to

Chris: Okay. Yeah, that’s fair.

Stephanie Wierwille: I mean, but you’re right. There was, I did read some studies, some actual studies that showed that Duolingo does not help you learn language, but here’s my take.

I think [00:13:00] it’s fun. It’s entertaining. I do it because it’s fun. so, you know, if they’re getting

people to actually engage

Chris: Yes. I agree.

Stephanie Wierwille: be, then that’s the job. And it’s just like so wild and ridiculous. And I just love any brand. I love the Wendy’s of the world, the Duolingos of the world, the.

Denny’s of the world. They just like, let’s get unhinged for a minute. It’s not all that serious.

Desiree Duncan: And let’s add a little bit, even though, you know, Chris didn’t learn Italian, but add a little bit of education to the mindless game scroll. I mean, I don’t know about you, but I had to delete a game off of my phone because it was just such a, Just a brain suck because I would just, I was jonesing for it.

And I was like, this is unproductive. Uh, at least the gamification of an educational level, uh, feels a little bit better than what most of us might

be, uh,

Chris: Duolingo is a game, Des, you, you nailed it. Duolingo to me was a game that was about achievements and progression. [00:14:00] And that’s supposed to also teach me Italian and it failed miserably at that. Um, there was a little bit of competition in my family, see how far we would get. But like, I got better things to do.

I got actual video games I can play. I don’t need Duolingo unless it’s teaching me something. Ha, ha, ha.

Stephanie Wierwille: There you go.

Desiree Duncan: All right. Speaking of the culture of the internet and what people are doing on it, UnitedHealthcare is under investigation from the Department of Justice over Medicare billing practices and it’s not looking good.

This report suggests that Medicare paid UnitedHealth billions for questionable diagnoses.

Quite concerning. But I’m

Chris: Speaking of gamification, that is the ultimate gamification of our tax dollars right there. That’s my, that’s my segue. Or I could have gone with speaking of dead owls, but I couldn’t figure out how to make that work.

Desiree Duncan: I think we were burying the dead owls. We’re not speaking of it, [00:15:00] especially if we don’t know who Flaco, the New

York City owl was.

Yes.

Chris: Well, if I have now figured it out, there’s an actual case where United sought reimbursement for a dead owl. So that’s part of the investigation. How about that?

Desiree Duncan: Wow. Okay,

Chris: I mean, what are you going to say about this? You had the best segue Des like cultural moment. Um, this is not new news. From my standpoint, if you follow people online, um, this is how, this is the primary way that United makes money these days. It’s not on their commercial insurance, um, which is a flat growth projection for them.

Uh, and some big insurers are getting out of commercial insurance because it’s just, there’s no, there’s no future in it, which is kind of scary. If you know our business, uh, Medicare Advantage, wow, like just, it’s just a gravy train and that’s tax dollars. They’re going right to a private institution. So I hope that this [00:16:00] investigation actually bears fruit.

Oftentimes they get off on some kind of silly little fine. It’s not even close to the money that they absconded with, if they indeed absconded with it, uh, or that the case isn’t dropped, um, for some weird reason with the new administration. So that’s my take. Stephanie, what do you think about our friends at United?

Stephanie Wierwille: Um, I think you covered it. Um, I don’t know. I I’m like, you hope it bears fruit. I hope, I don’t know. I’m like, Oh, I hope I, I would love to say, wouldn’t it be nice for it? Not to, to pan out this way, but the inappropriately recorded diagnoses, I think is what hits me deeply in the fields. Um, For all the reasons why, you know, but, but at the same time, it’s like, well, these are, this, this is the problem with the incentivization structure of the U.

S. healthcare system, right? We are incentivized in these ways. Um, and so how do you, to your point, when you’ve maxed out commercial insurances, what do you do next? Where do you chase? [00:17:00] And then what do you chase after that? And at a certain point you have to post year over year growth. I’m not justifying it to be clear.

I’m not justifying it. I just like to dig into the why, like why, if this happened, why did it happen? And so you have, you know, it’s just, it sucks. The whole thing sucks. The whole system sucks. That’s not new news either. Um, yeah. Oh, it, it hurts. It hurts really a lot. That’s my take.

It’s ouch.

Desiree Duncan: It’s definitely ouch and more heart palpitations around Medicare, just given the considerations around the doge and the considerations and all of the texts that I’m getting about, do we need to keep Medicare, Medicaid? How important is this to you? Please fill out this survey. before I spiral into more, uh, high blood pressure, let’s switch into a little little topic that’s always of interest to us, and it’s the social media, what’s going on there.

so

Chris: Okay. [00:18:00] Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Desiree Duncan: 13 billion merger with Omnicom Group, citing potential political leverage from Elon Musk, who has, I don’t know, way too much control right now. Uh, but X CEO, Linda Iaccarino, also reportedly made similar comments during a discussion with the IPG executives, noting that, uh, this is quite concerning, and IPG has recently signed a new annual agreement with X outlining this potential

and has emphasized that

Chris: Okay.

Okay.

I just don’t even know what to do. I had, I thought about this in terms of winners and [00:19:00] losers just like quickly. Um, and then Stephanie, I’d love for your comment on whether you disagree or you have other winners and losers. Winners is, is actually Elon Musk. Like he’s winning all day long here. Cause now they’re getting revenue for a platform that really wasn’t getting it before.

Chris: How they’re getting it though, uh, leads to a couple of losers. IPG. Huge loser. I mean, they look at best weak, uh, at worst financially suspect. Their whole merger with Omnicom is like two dinosaurs deciding if they breed, they’re somehow going to become a mammal. Um, like, they’re laying off people. This looks like It just looks terrible.

And then I love that their first comment on the whole thing is like, we are clients come first because that’s what they have to say, but who’s going to pay for all that advertising, either their clients or IPG, who’s going to have to eat it and essentially like that’s their investment in trying to get their deal through, uh, IPGs clients.

Uh, I [00:20:00] would not be happy to be an IPG client right now. I feel like you’re going to get a lot of like, Hey, you know what we should do? We should run some advertising on X. That would be a great idea as they try to get rid of their inventory. Uh, and then the winner, which is interesting because when I wrote this, I was only thinking about this, this story, but now I think about Duolingo too.

The winner of protection rackets. Like it would be a shame if something happened to your blank. So I guess Duolingo is running a protection racket for, for duo. Uh, and that’s all this is. And I don’t know how we got to a place in the market in this country where we are okay with essentially Linda Yaccarino saying, it would be a shame if something happened to your merger, um, or you could just pay us that’s, that is like.

Like, go look at Goodfellas, go look at Sopranos, that is a known, organized crime approach, and somehow it’s working, and somehow it’s legal, uh, it, it only works if the people on the IPG [00:21:00] side cave, uh, but we’re seeing a lot of that. So I think that that’s a big deal too, it gets way bigger than X, uh, it’s not a, it’s not a great place for us to go as a country.

Um, I think some of that happened behind the scenes forever. Like, let’s be honest with ourselves, but now it’s just like right out there on the table, like this is how you do business. So I don’t know. Those are my winners and losers. What do you think, Stephanie?

Stephanie Wierwille: Well, I, I just, I just kind of want to, I guess, start with, there’s some stuff that leads up to this, right? As always, and, and, first of all, it is the structure of media buying when you have the scale of an IPG, and, and that’s, you know, of course the, What, what they say to clients is of course the value prop.

And in some ways it’s true, right? Okay. We can do these reserved buys up front. They don’t just do them with X. They do them with every single platform out there. And as, as you know, does noted, it’s sort of outlining potential spend before the beginning of the year. And the whole point is to get these [00:22:00] discounts agents agency wide that then can be applied to clients.

So. That’s, you know, the, the structure of it. The challenge of course, then comes with the lack of flexibility, which there was previous articles. I don’t remember if we dug into this on this podcast or not, but previous, um, sort of investigations into the fact that those types of, uh, discounts don’t always pay off with actual benefits to clients. Um, and so, you know, when you, when you’re structuring your buys that way, you leave yourself open to this kind of issue. Um, So I think it’s like, did we see this coming? maybe maybe not. Um, but just the amount of leverage is what I go back to that the social platforms have Zuck and Elon and all of these folks, they’ve got so much leverage and I love to preach, build your own audiences.

Don’t put all of your love. Don’t give all of your leverage to these tech companies and these social platforms and these channels. can we build [00:23:00] our own audiences and start to take back control as advertisers and, um, And brands. So there’s a lot of layers in here. It’s, it’s, yes, it’s the fact that Elon can do whatever he wants right now, but it’s a lot, it’s a lot complex

than that.

I think.

Desiree Duncan: Yeah, I think about the clients who, you know, in order to stay in connection to their own brand, who have decided that they want nothing to do with that platform. So then does it start to seep in even just from a programmatic by where there is, you know, Uh, a little bit of a curtain to see where all of these placements versus a specific, um, sponsored by with the various platforms.

That’s what I kind of think about. Like if I’m a client, I really am going to look at what I want you to decipher and to really unpack my programmatic buying for me and where this is going. And I want these particular channels, I guess, blacklisted even, but yeah, so much to really unpack and the it’s giving extortion.

Stephanie Wierwille: I was, I was thinking about this [00:24:00] last night in the context of sort of a metaphor of like financial advisors in a way. So there are financial advisors that, you know, have their own products that they’re trying to sell and they have a certain amount they have to sell. And then there’s ones that can be really flexible and basically choose what they need for you. Um, and there’s pros and cons to both, right? Like on one hand. If, if, if they’re trying to sell certain products, then theoretically they know more about them and, and all of that. The con is obviously the lack of flexibility and are they just trying to push it on you? So I think the same thing goes here.

And, you know, of course the, uh, as, as, as, as, as a smaller marketing firm, you can kind of can have more flexibility and think locally and things of that nature. There’s pros and cons both way, obviously, but I think just the more scale we see in this. The more you end up in this situation and again, I go back to the, who are we giving the power to? And Chris made a good, good outline of the winners and losers. So that’s my

little metaphor for the day.

Chris: Yeah, and I would be, um, I would less two sides at Stephanie [00:25:00] on the pros and the cons of that. I mean, I, I start off by I’m skeptical of anybody or anything that’s being pushed on me where the primary beneficiary is the pusher. like financial advisor, my first financial advisor ever in my twenties, helping me set my retirement fund said here.

I mean, I knew enough to know that like there at the time, like 8, 000 mutual funds, he’s like here, pick from one of these five. And they were all Franklin Templeton, all the same. And I’m like, of 8, 000 to five, you’re pushing. Like I knew immediately. And so I’m, I’m suspect of that. Cause that, that means that’s best for him, not what’s best for me.

And that is the fear here. Right. And I think we still see this. I would say that the, the, the area of media has gone, has advanced so far in my career. And remember I’ve been around for a long time where I was around before there was digital. Like that was, it was all traditional. Um, And we saw it then, but we still see it today.

And it’s the dynamic of, uh, you’ve, you’ve got to be so smart with your [00:26:00] media, but the, but the purchase or the commitment to media ahead of the strategy is, is always a challenge. So you will have a, in the health system world, you might have a client who says, Hey, we need to. Uh, increase our taver business and you come up with a great plan and they’re like, Oh, but we got to use radio and billboards.

You’re like, why in the world there’s like 14 people in your market and you taver, why would you use radio and billboards? That’s super ineffective. Well, because we bought it eight months ago and we’ve got to use it on something and you’re like, okay, that’s the tail wagging the dog. We still see that today.

And so programmatic allows that to Des’s point, maybe even in a way that you’re not even aware of. Um, so the upfront by, by an IPG is always something that folks, if I were you, I would take the Franklin Templeton approach and be like, why are you, whatever you’re doing, is that for me or is it for you? Uh, and I think you [00:27:00] got to question that with these giant conglomerates that are really struggling financially, the dinosaurs, the dinosaur mating mammal metaphors.

Is maybe appropriate? I don’t know

that.

Desiree Duncan: Wow.

Chris: I’m sorry.

Stephanie Wierwille: We’re back to this animal,

animalistic theme.

Chris: The owls. Yeah.

Stephanie Wierwille: of

the, the title of the episode,

Chris: Owls and dinosaurs. Yeah, totally. Totally. What else? What else on that? I mean, just the whole concept of can we talk for a second about how do you do business? I mean, health systems are in this boat. I mean, I can’t remember if we, we touched on this in the last couple of podcasts, but the story in the wall street journal about healthcare leaders going to visit our new administration and paying seven figures for the privilege that seems to be the game these days, but that’s a pretty scary game again, probably happening behind the scenes.

Forever and a non, but [00:28:00] now that that just seems to be the explicit kind of way to do business. They’re not great.

Stephanie Wierwille: buying the ability to

make decisions, essentially.

Chris: Yeah. And guess who gets to do that? Guess who gets to do that? Like, it’s, it’s just, Yeah.

Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah.

Chris: That’s right. So I don’t know. That’s going to lead interesting outcomes. Des you’re, you have a fire burning.

Desiree Duncan: You know, the song kind of, it rings into the category of the strategy games. Like, it just feels very bleak, Dungeons and Dragons, um, world. Kind of conquering kinds of things where diplomats are having these backroom conversations with each other to figure these things. But now it’s very much a corporate entity rather than political figures.

And it’s just everybody’s like, well, you learned it on the Kendrick Lamar Super Bowl. Performance of the, what are the, what are the cheat codes to this game? [00:29:00] And that essentially it’s that what you had mentioned about the kissing, the ring, having these meetings, seeing what this person is about, what we can do together, allegedly, I don’t know.

It’s just, yeah, I, I, our livelihoods are up for chance and

it’s very scary.

Chris: For sale is a better way to put it. I also think like you’ve got to think long term if you’re a, if you’re a healthcare leader, our, so our clients, the health systems, even outside the health system space, and you’re playing this new game. Because you feel like you have to play it. There’s a side of me that gets that, but also what happens in four years or eight years or 10 years where the pendulum swings back because almost always does.

And people go, wow, you pretty much sold your soul there. How’s that going to go? Right? So there’s, it’s not as simple as just. Pay to play. I think you’ve got to be really thoughtful about it and be ready for maybe even sooner than that. Um, folks called on the carpet for that kind of approach, even though that seems to be what’s [00:30:00] needed.

Um, AKA, you, you know, like, do you, I don’t know if you guys remember Elon Musk up on stage last year. And what he said to all the advertisers and now he’s suing them for not advertising on his platform. It’s like, wait a second, which is it? Do you want us to bleep off? Or do you want us to buy your advertising?

Cause you’re sending mixed signals there. I’m

Stephanie Wierwille: to X. I know people do. Yes, I know that’s a possibility, but it’s, you’re not going to, you’re not going to become Netflix. Sorry. It’s just not, it’s not as valuable, but, um, this is just, it’s just, I think to go back to your point, Chris, of playing the longterm, I think the other thing that this makes me think about is thankfully we have it.

Yeah. Pieces like are coming out in the journal showing these things and those will continue to happen and you know, if this was happening 7, 500 years ago, which it was, these kinds of things have always been happening, but you didn’t have the [00:31:00] social medias of the world to quickly come out and share it and. I know you’re a big reality TV fan, Chris. I think I have one take many takeaways, but one big one from watching lots and lots of reality TV and soap operas, which is everything will always come to light. Something crazy happens behind the scenes. And 16 episodes later, it all breaks open. And I think that’s true in life too.

And so given the world of social media, given the sense that everything is being filmed and shared and whistleblowers. You know, any decisions that are made in closed doors are no longer in closed doors. Hopefully,

um, I’m

Chris: sure.

Stephanie Wierwille: 100 percent true all the time, but it’s becoming truer and truer. So think

about the transparency there.

Chris: I wish you were right. I’m just finishing 1984 where that certainly is not the case in that book. And there’s not the social media world. There’s the social media worlds. And so what? There’s no truth anymore. That assumes that there is a Given [00:32:00] truth that comes to light even when given truth comes to light.

It’s not accepted as given truth And that’s not true. Just on one side. It’s true on both sides So I really worry that like whether that is true anymore stephanie. I hope you’re right. I hope you’re right Um,

Stephanie Wierwille: things come to light now what’s done after that. Is always clear, like, because then all the different sides come out and then the truth, whatever the truth is gets slanted and, you know, but I’m not saying everything comes to light. It’s just that more now than 50 years ago, these backroom conversations are showing up and turning up and then, yes, the, you know, the PR machines go to work.

But, um,

anyway.

Chris: yeah, that’s true

Desiree Duncan: and thinking of what does PR even look like now, especially since, you know, journalism is changing, you know, with the current administration’s press secretary announcing, Hey, we’re opening the doors to new journalists and not just the, [00:33:00] uh, the standard, the nationals and what have you, so then it’s a matter of, you know, who is telling that PR, unquote truth.

Who is uncovering it? You know, where are people going to get their their information? If trust has plummeted, uh, that might be an exaggeration of, um, a lot of the news. Um, uh, locals and icons. Then where are people going and how do you kind of keep tabs in track of that? And then what weaves the narrative, um, around that?

I don’t know. I just it’s becoming more and more open. Open season, open format, open source, uh, as far as where we

can go to get all of that information.

Chris: Did you say open source or open sores?

Desiree Duncan: Yes.

Chris: Okay, good.

Stephanie Wierwille: Ew,

Chris: I know, I was just clarifying.

Stephanie Wierwille: Oh.

Chris: bring it all the way back to like our clients and stuff. So two, two takeaways from all this one as a brand, you’ve got to be really thoughtful and careful about where you’re. Where you’re showing [00:34:00] up. So that’s the, that’s a huge takeaway from the X thing.

If you, um, it doesn’t have to be an IPG client by the way, or, or agency that is pushing you in the wrong place. It could be anybody doing that. So keep your eyes open there, make sure you’re where you want to be. Um, and then I think. I don’t know. I lost my other one. My other one was really good. And I totally lost it does.

What was the open sore comment about?

Desiree Duncan: Well, just that, um, everything is becoming more focused on who is the

user generating this sort of

Chris: Yes. So, so please pick up your copy of Joe public 2030 and read the chapter on the rise of health secs,

Stephanie Wierwille: Yes.

Chris: about what happens when things are so polarized that there isn’t truth anymore. And truth is maybe driven by an ideology or worldview. That is counter to what you do as a health system counter to general health practices.

I know you guys dip in this a little bit last episode, but, um, there are some truths that I hope we stick to, like,

Stephanie Wierwille: [00:35:00] to

Chris: it’s, it’s a good thing to take shots when they’re helpful to, to immunize yourself and you as a health system are going to follow. Standard clinical things. And while those can always be explored and talked about, like, there’s got to be truth in healthcare.

We are in big trouble, some level of truth, right? We all don’t get to decide where they’re like, uh,

Stephanie Wierwille: contact

Chris: what’s, what’s, the word I’m looking for? Not an immunization, a vaccine

Stephanie Wierwille: 800

Chris: or bad.

Stephanie Wierwille: 6347.

Chris: everybody gets to decide on their own, then the people who think it’s good, doesn’t matter. So there’s got to be some level of truth in science.

Otherwise we’re in trouble. So you’re going to have to sort that out as a health system to your points last week in the last podcast. It’s not as simple as it used to be for good reasons or bad.

Stephanie Wierwille: I think the rise of the health secs is the theme maybe for 2025 so far and will continue to be so something we’ll probably dig into even more. Um, uh, but it’s. You know, it’s really reared [00:36:00] its ugly head and I’ve, as a side note, I’ve been watching apple cider vinegar on Netflix and it’s basically the rise of the health secs in Netflix form, which is what happens when people do their own research and then become an influencer off of it and then sell their point of view and then it spirals from there. so anyway, next time,

perhaps.

Desiree Duncan: Oh,

Chris: We got measles outbreak in Texas. It’s continues to spread. So we sorry, does

Desiree Duncan: all good. Any other hot takes before

we wrap?

Chris: there’s some pretty hot takes there. Some dead owls. Some, some dinosaur coitus. There’s a lot going on there. So we probably should not open sores.

Stephanie Wierwille: I’m stuck on open source. That’s just good. I’m going to be stuck on that all day. I can’t get past that. And, and I watched the substance this weekend too. So

there’s

some

Chris: Oh,

Stephanie Wierwille: anyway,

Chris: oh, we have to save that. Cause I know Des has, Des [00:37:00] has

all the opinions on the substance and we’ve all seen it. So let’s save that for next time. That is like a walking open sore though. I think that’s perfect.

Desiree Duncan: All right. Let’s wrap there. Uh, I would like to let folks know that no owls will harm during the recording of this episode. Uh, but for all of you listening, be sure to subscribe to our newsletter, the no normal rewind, which goes even deeper into our discussions you hear on the no normal show. And we want to hear from you.

So shoot us an email at no normal at bpdhealthcare. com so that your question may be featured in our next episode and make sure you share the show with friends and colleagues and give us a review and rating on iTunes and Spotify, preferably five stars. All of that would be greatly appreciated. And until next time, don’t ever be satisfied with the normal push that no normal y’all and we’ll talk to you next

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