Desiree Duncan: [00:00:00] Welcome everyone to the No Normal Show, brought to you by BPDA marketing services firm that delivers the future of healthcare’s leading brands. This show is where we leave all things status quo, traditional old school, and boring in the dust, and celebrate the new, the powerful, the innovative, the bold, all focused around the future of healthcare, marketing and communications.
And as Duncan Vice President of Health Equity and Inclusion. And today, I’m joined by Stephanie Werewolf. EVP of engagement and a very special guest, Victoria Davis, group account director extraordinaire and low key friend of the pod, uh, excited to have you on. Hi, Victoria.
Victoria Davis: Huge fan of the pod. Really excited to be here with y’all friends. Oh, the y’all coming out
Desiree Duncan: Oh, your text is showing.
Victoria Davis: Yes.
Desiree Duncan: Uh, so on today’s topic, we’re gonna be, uh, looking into, you know, women as chief healthcare officers of their households. Uh, but before that we’ve got a couple of updates and we [00:01:00] wanna like jump into some, what are we seeing and what’s stopping us from scrolling. Um, but some of those updates.
So please join eHealth Care and BPD on Wednesday, July 16th at 2:00 PM Eastern for a webinar called Behind the. Best how Top Health Systems designed award-winning integrated campaigns. Our very own, Stephanie will be joining marketing leaders from Mount Sinai and University of Maryland Medical Center with E Healthcare to discuss these brand storytelling trends and winners from the 2024 E Healthcare Leadership Awards.
So excited to get to see. More FaceTime, uh, with Stephanie, um, beyond our YouTube. Uh, and then also of course the future of the CMO report, uh, which we have out have had out for a little bit. The link is available in our show notes. And of course, if you can’t get enough of the no normal show, be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.
The No Normal Rewind, which recaps these captivating discussions you hear on our show with some extra insights you won’t find [00:02:00] anywhere else. So, I don’t know, let’s just. Kind of check in with one another. Now, Victoria, you were recently in Nashville. You’re with the team. How? How was your visit?
Victoria Davis: I was, it was so great to be in Nashville. I was there for two days this week, um, onboarding some new team members
Desiree Duncan: I.
Victoria Davis: I just love, I’m a, I’m a hundred percent remote employee and it’s just really great to get in the office and connect with others and have a little riff. And Raf and me and Stephanie were talking about all the things.
And I sat at DE’s normal desk, so I felt like she was there with me, but. It’s just great to be in person and have that face, face-to-face conversations.
Desiree Duncan: Yes, it certainly is, and I was super jealous to see that. I had no idea that you were gonna be in town. I was like, ah. Fomo. It’s real.
Victoria Davis: I kept thinking like, she was here so we could go hang out, but
Desiree Duncan: I know.
Victoria Davis: okay.
Desiree Duncan: Well, we’ll have to plan accordingly.
Victoria Davis: Absolutely.
Desiree Duncan: But I know that of course, you know, being [00:03:00] from Texas, uh, essentially, and we all know of course of the, the devastation of the storms, uh, but that knowing that you are right there, boots in the ground in Texas, can you give a little bit of update of just kind of what, what you’re seeing and how the community has, uh, responded?
Victoria Davis: Yeah, so I live in Austin, central Texas about. 45 minutes to an hour west, I’m sorry, east of where a lot of the, um, flooding occurred. um, y’all, the stories just have been so devastating to hear homes were washed away. I mean, I mean, you’ve seen all of it in, in all the national media, but one thing that I really love.
About being a Texan is that we have a strong sense of loyalty to our state and to the people that that live here. It’s part of who we are as Texans, as part of our brand. So what’s just been so beautiful is to see all the Texas brands, specifically ones who are. Based in central Texas stepping up to support [00:04:00] people in their time of need.
There’s been a ton of social media engagement, content creators and influencers have been sharing and promoting the fundraisers that are going on. Um, I just saw one this week where p Terry’s a, a local chain burger chain donated a hundred percent of proceeds, I believe, um, yesterday. To, um, the flood relief efforts and there were lines everywhere for people to go and, and support.
Um, but my personal favorite was when I saw a video of the HEB trailers and vehicles. They were rolling up like superheroes to, uh, you know, to provide support to, to folks in Kerrville who are trying to rebuild their lives. And people were laughing. Like HEB will always be supportive of everyone,
Desiree Duncan: Yes.
Victoria Davis: We can count on them.
So just a huge part of who we are. I think as a state we have a very strong allegiance to supporting each other, even when we are [00:05:00] sometimes, um, we disagree politically. I think we support each other when, when, when it’s needed most. So, um, definitely sending all thoughts and prayers to people, to friends and families who are still, um, who are creating new normals after the incident.
Desiree Duncan: Yes, absolutely. Definitely keeping everyone in our hearts, uh, and on our minds. Um, but I definitely can attest to what you experienced. You know, I’ve had different rounds of being in a Texan. Uh, I was living in Austin back in 2021 during the big crazy ice storm. Uh, and I got to witness firsthand just how Texans came together.
I thought it was just Tennessee Vol Vols that did that, Tennessee volunteers. Uh, but it was, it was, it was really nice to see that in Texas.
Victoria Davis: That was even worse ’cause it was cold.
Desiree Duncan: Yeah.
Stephanie Wierwille: I guess that’s something we all have in common. We’ve all been a Texan, or are a Texan At one point I was a, um, a Dallas resident for six plus years, but I, I think it’s been interesting to your point, Victoria, about the brands coming together. [00:06:00] Um, of course all of our health system friends are also, you know, jumping in, uh, where they can.
I know Texas Children’s has been really involved in Teladoc and even I think San Antonio Animal. Care services. I saw so, so, so much great work being done to really support children, families, mental health, even pets. Um, it’s, I know it’s hard work that’s going on there. So shout out to all the, the Texans, both in healthcare and out of healthcare that are really, really leaning in, probably working 24 7, I’m sure. hard work, but really important.
Desiree Duncan: Oh yes, these moments definitely take the 24 7, um, need of time. Um, but knowing that we’ve been seeing this quite a bit on our feeds, uh, switching gears here to see, you know, what else has been in our feeds that have, uh, made us stop the scroll. Um, essentially this is thinking about like, uh, items especially around, you know, advertising, marketing, brand, all of that fun stuff.
Uh, I’m curious, [00:07:00] Victoria, what has been a scroll stopper for you recently?
Victoria Davis: Oh my gosh. I was on LinkedIn earlier this week and I saw this post about New Balance. So I think we’re all familiar with New Balance. They made what we all called dad shoes, but kind of the history of them was news to me and it, it reminded me of the fact that the idea of brand. Is not dead. And oftentimes, like legacy brands just need to, you know, evolve if, if, if, if they wanna survive.
So the story was the CMO got fired because they had 15 years of decline. And I think we saw that right, as consumers and marketers. And so this new guy comes in and he sees that the advertising. Is all wonky. 70% of it was going towards deals and discounts, incentivizing people to buy shoes that wasn’t working.
He flips the script and takes 70% of it and puts that toward brand efforts. And y’all, for 18 months, nothing happened. They [00:08:00] just watched building brand efforts. Sales were not changing. And then on nu on month 19, it was like something clicked and we have seen the, the, the clicking continue, the fi the fire for New Balance continuing for a really long time.
And what’s fascinating is that it went from being a dad shoe to like 180 degree difference to now it’s something that multiple generations use. Um, and that’s not only functional as it always has been. Been, but it’s now tiptoeing into being fashion forward. So it reminded me of the podcast episode that you all did with Chris Bevelo a few weeks ago where you talked about the idea that brand, um, that brand is dead.
And so it was just a good nod to what you all discussed.
Desiree Duncan: Then in fact, brain is not dead. It is, it’s undead. Uh, yeah. I’ve actually, that’s, that’s so interesting. ’cause I’ve noticed the, I guess the shoe is called the classics through 27. It’s like that retro style, [00:09:00] but like super, like fashion forward. I’ve, I’ve been seeing those. Everywhere for like the past, like year or two, and I just was like, what?
What? Where did that even come from? They’re like, on everyone’s feed, but mine. I guess I need to get some.
Stephanie Wierwille: Huh? Yeah, they, they definitely were hitting my feed, I don’t know, maybe starting a year or two ago, and I think it was through the influencer celebrity crowd. And so to me, you know, influencer marketing is absolutely core to brand building at. This point, right? Brand, as we talked about a few weeks ago, we went really hard on brand is not advertising, brand is not a TV spot.
It’s all the ways that you show up in culture and beyond. And so I think one way that they showed up, I know they did a lot of influencer marketing collabs and just collabs in general. Everyone from, I wanna say Rihanna and Timothy Chalamet and Jaden Smith and Bella Hadid and more. And that’s kind of where I think what first caught my eye. I feel like I saw Kendall Jenner wearing dad shoes and I was like. Therefore I need them. But it [00:10:00] was the re, it wasn’t just like, it’s, I’m not saying go partner with the celebrity and your brand will be back. It was the positioning of it. To your point, Victoria, it was the fact that it’s, you know, it’s cool to wear the dad shoe.
Desiree Duncan: Was this like a, a birth from like the norm core like trend where everybody, I, I remember seeing everybody starting to wear like the old school, like Reebok, like your mom. Like those are like the mom tennis shoes,
Stephanie Wierwille: jeans.
Desiree Duncan: jeans. I’m like, okay, is this kind of like, was New balance, just like really harnessing just the norm core and all that good stuff, but
Victoria Davis: from like sneaker culture a little bit, right? Like
Desiree Duncan: mm-hmm.
Victoria Davis: a lot more trendy, where people, it was, it was not, um, inappropriate to wear sneakers in like. Business functions to like formal events. Um, we saw other sneaker brands that were really ramping up, and so New Balance was like, how can we insert ourselves into the conversation without losing the essence of who we are, which is, there’s still a really comfortable shoot.
People were [00:11:00] talking about wearing them to like gala event through Europe and on really long travel days that require, you know. Dirty shoes. And so they stayed true to who they were, but they found themselves to evolve, which is, is, is necessary. I mean, I think I’ve seen like other brands do that too across, um, multiple categories.
Desiree Duncan: All right. Well
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah.
Desiree Duncan: myself influence. I’m scooting down a new balance to get some.
Victoria Davis: send you a link desk
Stephanie Wierwille: Oh, it does. I think that they would fit your vibe and your style very
Victoria Davis: with a bolo.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yes.
Desiree Duncan: All right. And I guess for me, a scroll stopper has been, I recently ran across this ad from Polaroid and remember Polaroid, uh, remember actually like printing out photos? Well, again, another really interesting out-of-home campaign, uh, it’s an image of essentially like. That old school Polaroid photo, uh, with the white, uh, framing around it.
But on the, the billboard or the ad is essentially saying like, AI can’t [00:12:00] generate. And then this particular one was of, uh, folks at the beach. So then they can’t, ai can’t generate sand between your toes. Uh, so Polaroid’s kind of coming in really hard on the idea of a, you know. Getting off your phones, a phone fatigue, getting out back out in the real world and experiencing life and not just an AI generated life.
So I thought that was really cool.
Stephanie Wierwille: Oh, I haven’t seen
Victoria Davis: I haven’t either.
Stephanie Wierwille: to look that up.
Desiree Duncan: Yeah. Yeah. We’ll shoot you the link.
Stephanie Wierwille: you’re
Victoria Davis: It’s interesting because you still want, you know, you wanna document it a little bit like the sand between your toes, but I can appreciate them staying true to, um, their nostalgic ways, right? Staying present in the moment, which is what Polaroids do, right? It’s capturing things that are happening real time, so,
Stephanie Wierwille: Hmm.
Desiree Duncan: and just like the new balance, it’s like the, the vintage, the, the nostalgia is just always continuing. Sorry, Steph, I think you had something to add.
Stephanie Wierwille: Well, [00:13:00] I’m looking so I just quickly, quickly looked it up while you were,
Desiree Duncan: I.
Stephanie Wierwille: were chatting about it. And what I, one thing I like about it is like the, they’ve got this handwritten font. It’s very, um, intentionally lo-fi, which I think back to the point of that’s who they are, you know, like the. Polaroid doesn’t print out high def 4K and it’s not supposed to, but it’s capturing a moment. So I think it ties like you all are saying to not trying to be something that you’re not, not trying to keep up with a new trend, but saying like, Hey, you know, this was a trend for a reason and I feel like we’ve talked on this show about how with. So much more tech advances. We’re just gonna see more premium on humanity, more premium on the authenticity, more premium on those real life moments. So that’s where nostalgic brands can really lean in.
Desiree Duncan: Absolutely are any other scroll stoppers or, uh, interesting takes on some rebrands.
Stephanie Wierwille: Well, we were talking about fashion. I think, um, just before the show [00:14:00] started, we were chatting about coach having a bit of a comeback, uh, which is, is so interesting. I actually bought my first, um. How do I put it? My reentry to coach, uh, last year, uh, because I think again, influencer collab, they had a collaboration with Jennifer Lopez, I believe, and I used to work at Coach.
I worked retail and college at Coach and it was like the hot thing then, and then it just. Die to slow death because Louis Vuitton and Gucci took over. Um, and they’re back. They’re back in a big way. Um, and I think, you know, I see them, I see them in airports a lot as showing up. I see them in malls and they’ve kind of rebranded a little bit as well.
So that’s an interesting, uh, an interesting one.
Desiree Duncan: Right here at the intersection of healthcare and fashion. Uh, where else can you get this kind of news? Alright, so. Speaking of connecting with folks from an authentic place. Uh, our topic today is about, you know, women. So we know that women are essentially the chief health officers of [00:15:00] their households.
And that, you know, as healthcare marketers especially, you know, we’re always noting this, that we need to make sure that we’re reaching women because they are the key decision makers around health. Uh, and. Actually make the appointments for literally everyone and every living thing in the household. Um, but essentially I feel like at times we often over rely on maybe some of the outdated segmentation, uh, like moms maternity, you know, uh.
Women of a certain age. I know we’ve talked in the past around, some menopause, advertising of the service lines, but, you know, according to, the November, 2024 report, uh, from the association and National Advertisers and see her, but that essentially women account for 80% of healthcare decisions in the country, but yet they remain deprioritized and underrepresented in medical marketing.
This is key. Because women make up over 85% of all the consumer purchases in the country. [00:16:00] 90% of healthcare decisions as we shared before. Uh, but that yes, we’re growing and increasingly frustrated and misunderstood by healthcare orgs. So what can we do about that? And so I know Victoria, we were talking with you around.
Um, you know, some, some work and you had shared some data around just some of the, the weight stigma of essentially, uh, when women then go into experience their, you know, care provider, the first thing they do is like, okay, let’s get on the sta the scales. And that, you know, personally attacked by anyone making me get on a scale, um, because I’m here for a cough.
Not anything else, but Okay. Um, but that essentially, you know, we’re really missing the mark on connecting with women, you know, one-on-one. Um, but just kind of curious, just, you know, Victoria would love to hear just some of your. Initial thoughts around, um, just the experience of, you know, women in healthcare, uh, women in the household, or what have you.
Uh, before we kind of jump into, you know, what we can look at [00:17:00] from a marketing and brand standpoint.
Victoria Davis: Yeah, I’m definitely one of those people who brings my weight with me at the doctor, like, hop on the scale. Nope, I have it right here. it this morning. But, um, it’s, it’s interesting. Um, as a chief health officer in my own home, I’m always thinking about not only me, but my, my partner and how we go to the doctor and how we’re being perceived.
And it got me thinking a lot as someone that is. Really passionate about health and wellness is how do we define health? And so for our listeners that are, uh, you know, listening or are watching us, take a moment. And I want you to imagine when you see the word health, what image comes in your mind. Write it down, comment on our LinkedIn page and tell us what you see. And I would love to know, what do you see? Does that person look like you? Are they your gender? Are they [00:18:00] someone that you aspire to be? Are they someone that seems, um. Beyond aspiration. I think it’s fascinating how we define health has evolved over the last 20 years. So we had like the introduction of, of heroin chic and model chic where magazine covers were, you know, were filled with these images of women and men who had perfect bodies. that was what people aspired to be. And oftentimes what doctors were encouraging for people to look like. And then Kardashians came on the scene, God bless them. And told us all that curves were beautiful and I think it gave a lot of people, some agency to embrace who they were. Fast forward five to 10 more years and then we had, um, people just wanting to embrace their bodies for where they are, body positivity. Lizzo was on the scene encouraging everyone to do so, and we had the ADEs and a lot of celebrities and [00:19:00] influencers who were curvy, who refused to allow. Previous societal standards determine how they would show up in the world only to get to where we are today. we have the surge of GLP ones and people now trying to get back to what it feels like the heroin chic.
And what’s so fascinating is I read a article from Good Housekeeping and that stated body positivity is a nice idea. But no one actually believed it. And it just got me to thinking like, have we all been a little fake in how we perceived it and how much did what we heard in doctor’s offices contribute to that?
So. I’ve mentioned Lizzo. Liz was one of the people love her. She was on a weight release journey recently and actively talking about it. Um, Oprah has documented her weight loss for 30 to 40 years on her nationally syndicated talk show, but has been in some ways, like canceled because she lied about using Ozempic.[00:20:00]
Um, and. Now it’s come out that she is using it and she’s doing all these shows about it. Um, TikTok stars like Janelle Roner and Remy Bader, they’ve also been canceled ’cause they’ve built empires around body positivity only for them to again, go through await release journey, which is great. But they were not, honest about how it came to happen. And what’s interesting is that men are not exempt from this either. So folks like Jonah Hill have always been in the news about how his weight has gone up and down sometimes for roles. Sometimes just because of life. And so it’s, I think we’re tiptoeing back into an era that’s very reminiscent of, um, heroin fe and body dysmorphia and eating disorders.
And it’s really, really dangerous for consumers and as, um, as healthcare markers and healthcare providers that, that we have a responsibility to kind of help them navigate this, this journey and, and [00:21:00] redefine what health means.
Stephanie Wierwille: Wow, that hits really hard. Victoria, I love how you started with, you know, what does health look like? ’cause I think when I picture that, it absolutely is, you know, someone who’s just completely unrealistic and too aspirational. It’s, it’s the Instagram newsfeed, you know, that’s, and I think, you know, to this topic of women as chief health officers, it’s so fascinating that, there’s so much
That women struggle with related to health. As you noted it des right? It’s mental health is stress, it’s, it’s physical health concerns is financial. But, but I did not really expect when we kind of dug into this broader topic of women, that body image, weight pressure, and weight stigma would rise so high to the top. But as we talk about it, like I feel it so deeply in my cells and I think, I think about, you know, women making healthcare decisions for their family. As you noted, Victoria. The pressure is so
Victoria Davis: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Wierwille: also women are hit with so many messages from every single place possible, from the media, from Hollywood, from social media, um, from their friends, from Yes, they’re doctors.
And so I, [00:22:00] I love how you are kind of talking about the responsibility of, of, I think healthcare marketers is, you know, not just clinicians, which is, I firmly believe that. You know, healthcare marketers, our job is, it’s not to educate the entire public on all the healthcare items. That would be too hard of a job, but it is to make sure that we’re sharing factually accurate, clinical relevant. Information that is as entertaining and eye-catching as what the influencers are sharing. And I think that’s the problem is as women, as chief health officers, we’re so caught in this cultural tide of back and forth and up and down. And the other way that health to us is more about keeping up with the Joneses than it is about
Ourselves. and I think it’s a sexy conversation to say, how healthy are you on the inside? I think that’s super sexy and unfortunately that conversation has not broken through the clutter.
Desiree Duncan: Yeah, I mean we live in a society where, you know, essentially women’s bodies are constantly policed in some way or another. And you know, this is a telltale example [00:23:00] of that, is that so much of the focus is not. Like you, like you said, Stephanie, it’s not about like what’s kind of going on with our insights and like what the data is actually showing about our, uh, the metrics of our blood pressure and all of this stuff.
But it’s more just like you look at this person, look at their body, make all of the assumptions and then, you know, diagnose from there when in reality that’s not the truth. Um, but looking at. With women, there is an opportunity to connect and there is also that opportunity to connect beyond, you know, just our physical and our weight.
Um, we have some examples on that, but before we jump into that, I know, Stephanie, you have some thoughts more on just really the business opportunity for healthcare marketers, uh, when it comes to really actually focusing on women and not just what their bodies do.
Stephanie Wierwille: Absolutely. Yes. So, so at BPD we’re very passionate about this because we, we work on a lot of women’s health campaigns. Um, I think Women’s Health’s service line is, is really important and has been over the last several years. [00:24:00] And so it’s, um, you know, as we do cardio campaigns and as we do neuro and all that thing kind of thing.
And what I think is so fascinating is it’s women’s health is still very much siloed as a service line. often one thing that we recognize as, as we think about women is it’s not just, okay, ob gyn is over here. It is women as chief health officers. Number one, when they’re thinking of themselves, they need to think about primary care and cardio and you know, and, and ob gyn and all of that together.
But what I’ve seen is really interesting is some of the newer entrants, Maven Clinic is one example where they’re kind of bundling these services. Of primary care, skincare, mental health, women’s health, and beyond as, as kind of collective, because that’s what women’s health is. It’s not just as one of our, uh, strategists and, um, has called it in the past.
The kind of the bits and parts of women’s health as women, you know, of course, are a whole person. More importantly, the business opportunity is. If, if those stats you said does at the beginning, if, [00:25:00] if women are making 80% plus of the healthcare decisions, not just for themselves, but for their family, then you can quantify that as a really, really critical business opportunity.
And I think, um, there’s a few ways that that’s quantified. So the consulting firm, FDI has recently talked about how women’s health as a market holistically is projected to reach 30 billion by 2030. 95% of that market is still untapped. And I think that means not just women’s health as we think of it at that traditional service line, but the broader sense of serving women as people and then serving their families. Um, some other stats that are interesting is that working women in the US spend around 18% more on out of pocket compared to men. Um, and women are 33% more likely to seek medical care even for themselves. So. If those stats don’t motivate, you know, to say women are our main target audience, and not just women broadly, but like, let’s really segment it down to various psychographics and interests. Um, I think the point is [00:26:00] here, it’s not just an inclusive thing to do. It is the business savvy thing to do.
Desiree Duncan: Yeah. I love what you said about the, you know, so much of the focus has been on like, okay, like we’re gonna do a women’s health campaign, and it’s really focused on like ob, uh, GYN, um, maternity, menopause, what have you, and that in reality we also have hearts and lungs and knees that need replacing because.
Megan has already left the the ship. Um, but that, you know, that opportunity to really connect from that, what you had mentioned, kind of psychographic, hobbies, interests, what have you. Uh, I know we have a couple of thoughts around that. And so, uh, part of this got. I started thinking about this because I’ve been thinking about the WNBA and how it’s been blowing up.
Uh, I have a partner who is a huge Las Vegas ACEs fan, uh, season ticket holder and all that good. She drags me to games. Uh, being on the road, I am usually just like on my phone. I think I. Like the first game she dragged me to, just like on my phone, [00:27:00] like researching like what’s the brand strategy behind the WNBA?
Like why has it been blowing up instead of actually paying attention to the game? but I will say that, the resurgence of, some of the players coming out of the women’s, basketball championships these last couple of years has been just a lot, a big pivot to. all people really, focusing on, women’s sports and really paying attention to the WNBA.
I will say there’s also the, a rise in like women’s sports bars. these have been popping up in lightning speed, mostly giving a place for. Women’s sports to really be, the priority. as you go to most sports, bars or places that cater to that, you know, it’s always gonna be the pro sports, which are N-F-L-N-B-A-N-H-L, you know, men’s sports.
But there’s really like, okay, people are carving out a ni a niche, uh, to really serve women who are interested in sports. Um, so I first came across this article about the, the sports bra, which is a, uh, a sports bar in Portland, [00:28:00] Oregon. That only play women’s sports from the TV that they’ve garnered so much attention that they’ve earned almost a million dollars in the first eight months.
they’re certain to franchise so that other cities can open up their own versions of that. So think kind of like a, I don’t know, Buffalo Wildings. but that there are other independently owned, Types of bars in Seattle, Chicago, Denver, Boston, Austin, like this is a, this is a movement. There is an opportunity, especially within like a, maybe even a media buy around the WNBA, ’cause you’re reaching not only women, but also families, because this has become more of the, a family engagement, you know, where men are also a part of this.
Um, but I’m just curious what, others are thinking about like some other opportunities to really engage with women where they are.
Stephanie Wierwille: Well, first of all, I love, I love those examples that you gave Des, because I was just having a vision in my head of tying both what both of you are saying together, Victoria, what you said around what does health look like and this constant recurring image that we all love [00:29:00] when we see. When we hear that question, when in fact, one beautiful example of health is women’s athletes, right? Like the ability for your body to be able to do all the incredible thing that, that women athletes do. And unfortunately that is not the picture of health that we’ve been served as a culture. So it just makes me think like, I love this question of what does health look like? And I think, um, you know, Victoria, you were chatting a little bit, uh, with our, in our kind of industry news channel, um, as a a, a. Within BPD about imagery and how much imagery matters. Maybe you can share more about that, but, um, I was just thinking of that de as you were talking because you know what health looks like, looks like a variety of body types and it’s not just the athlete strong body type, although that is an important one.
But there’s so many body types and shapes and sizes that are, that are healthy and, um, I don’t know. I would encourage. Health systems, but healthcare organizations more broadly to explore those and really show that, because I think that’s what would make women feel safe when they walk in your [00:30:00] doors, is being seen and being heard and being reflected.
Desiree Duncan: Yeah. Victoria, I’m curious, just kind of, you know, you know, you as a woman in the world, uh, I know that you are always kind of gallivanting, you’re capturing, you know, the, uh, the life that you’re leading. I’m curious your thoughts on, um, you know, how to reach a, a woman like you who is very active, very health forward, uh, but may not be, uh, not see yourself in, um, some of the, the adv advertising and content.
Victoria Davis: Yeah, that’s really real. And Stephanie, your note around, um, athletes being a, a depiction of health. I love Venus and Serena Williams, um, and how they show up, I’d love to see, I’m going blank, but she was the rugby player, um, during the Olympic and they, after a question like, how did you prep for the, um, fourth illustrated swimsuit. Thing the other day, SI swim. Is that a question they’re asking men? No, but they asked her that question and she is [00:31:00] a, the premier view of, of health, right? And a, a gold, gold medal olympian. And they’re asking her how did she prep to be in a swimsuit? So that kind of just shows you where we are, but I think it’s just so, so important that brands remember that images still matter, right?
So whenever I go places and I’m looking and I’m like, oh my gosh, they have. Um, black and brown and so many views or so many images of, of people of, of different skin types and, and different, um, ethnicities. I think it’s so important. And then our campaigns that we’re putting out should be inclusive of, of that, not just in the images that we’re seeing, but also like the mannequins that are in the stores.
I’ll never forget seeing Nike having some, some curvy. represented and I was like, yes. This is how a lot of bodies look. Right? Most women’s bodies are between like size eight and 12, which is not gonna be a very slender frame. And so [00:32:00] women should be able to look at, active wear and see themselves represented.
I think it’s also important to remember that words are powerful, right? So how we’re talking about, um. in our campaigns is important. I mentioned like weight release. I’ve seen that as language that’s used a lot now instead of weight loss. And I think it’s really indicative of like the, the integration between mental and physical health, like people view, I.
The release of weight off their body is like they’re releasing something that’s bigger than them. And if brands were to start using that language, how many more people would utilize those resources because it’s being positioned as something that will help them in life. And then this idea of like.
Larger bodies is now language that’s being used more than like plus size. Why? Because people can’t release a lot of weight and still live in what is being deemed a larger body. So when brands are using language and images like that, they’re going [00:33:00] to attract a much larger, um, demographic of people who are already wanting to use their products and just wanna feel seen and heard.
In terms of like going back to like brand rebrand, Abercrombie and Fitch did a really good job of that, right? They were a very, very exclusive brand and flat out said who they wanted to attract. They changed the game. I. Now everyone in their mom is wearing Abercrombie in jeans. And as someone that was a teenager and way back when I was like, this is amazing.
And I went and bought a pair and they’re great. And so I think it’s, it’s so indicative of what can happen right across multiple categories, but especially in healthcare, when we’re at our most vulnerable of how powerful it can be. When people feel seen and heard, not only will you attract patients and consumers, but you’ll retain them, which is of course the goal. From a business perspective,
Stephanie Wierwille: I love your Abercrombie example and way to go back to the fashion nostalgia,
Victoria Davis: can’t help it
Stephanie Wierwille: I love, I, [00:34:00] I used, I also worked at Abercrombie in college, so I had an affinity for it then, you know, when it was, what it was, which was, you know,
Victoria Davis: bad.
Stephanie Wierwille: we realized, yes, we realized that it was problematic, but at the time, oh, the passion was strong. And I think what’s really interesting is the ability for a brand to sort of be able to, to check, check themselves
Victoria Davis: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Wierwille: like, look like we recognize. That that was problematic and we’re gonna change and actually we can change and be bigger and better than before ever. So I think sometimes that’s really hard work.
And I think let’s, I’ll just address the kind of maybe of this challenge in healthcare, which is. You know, from a clinical standpoint, yes, weight is part of the picture, and yet, you know, yes there are, you know, all kinds of diagnostics and things that have to be considered and people’s lifestyle and people’s nutrition habits and you know, even social determinants of health and all of that.
And it becomes so. Like all of that is so clinically critical and I think that the marketer’s job is to figure out [00:35:00] how do we then connect what’s factually accurate clinically to what people actually need in their lives. And to me, that’s what Whole Person Care really
Victoria Davis: Yep.
Stephanie Wierwille: communication is, as you know, much of a.
Actual healthcare of service as the actual care itself. So when I look at some brands that I think are doing really well, I already mentioned Maven Clinic. I think Tia Health is another one. Kind Body is another one. They all have this imagery that reflects, you know, who women are. They go hard against the messaging of like, Hey, you might feel this way, but we’re delivering care that way. Even their colors are modern, you know, yellow hunter, green, red, tan, um. They’re sort of saying visually and subtly, we are not like the legacy players. So it’s, I I just wanna acknowledge that like, and Abercrombie, we love that example and I love it, but I also wanna acknowledge that the complexities in
Victoria Davis: Yeah.
Stephanie Wierwille: are challenging, but how much more impact would it [00:36:00] have for healthcare leaders to be able to stand up and do this?
Victoria Davis: And why couldn’t healthcare lead the way? Why couldn’t they be the standard by which other industries look to say this is how we generally connect consumers. This is how we, I. Portray them in an inclusive way that not only captures their attention, but brings them in and makes them, um, to, you know, to increase that brand affinity.
I think so many times, as we’ve learned and heard from clients that like healthcare marketing should be a certain type of way when actuality like we could lead the pac. And I think that’s what’s really exciting is if we were able to make. Have hard conversations and be aware of, um, of changes in society, but also like be part of that change, I think is, is really powerful.
Desiree Duncan: All right. I, I know we’ve heard a, a great deal of, [00:37:00] you know, what could be, what’s possible, some examples of some health brands that are, that are doing it well. Um, but I know Stephanie, you’ve also done some digging, digging on, you know, some other examples around like, okay, what do we, what can we do? So marketing and communications experts, you know, there’s opportunities to really connect.
Um, would love to just hear those initial thoughts.
Stephanie Wierwille: And some of these are maybe more operational, so I recognize they can be even harder than we’ve talked a lot about look and feel and you know, of course as BPD we’re, uh, big, big believers in the power of, of, of, of identity. But, um, to go beyond that for a second, I think. Um, you know, things like sponsorships and partnerships you’ve mentioned.
WNBA does, that’s an interesting one. I think other brands that speak to women, I think about, um, you know, uh, like, like an Aldi or a Whole Foods or Publix or Costco. I think about Aura. I think about Peloton. I don’t, I think like any of these are open and there’s, there’s data that can help us [00:38:00] understand, um. Where, where women are leaned into, I think a lot of these new entrants are very social media forward as well, because of course, for better or for worse, that’s where women spend time. But just to go into some of the harder operational examples. Convenience is so critical. Women are busy. As chief health officers, we need convenient hours, we need telehealth.
We need flexible options. We need bundled services. Uh, we need that. Look across PCP, women’s health screenings, cardio, like make it easy, right? Don’t make us sort through tech. 15 pages of Find a Doctor and book nine different appointments, that’s gonna make us wait for a year and a half. And I know there’s operational challenges behind that.
I do. Um, but I think the new entrants are coming in and going hard against that. Um, and then lastly, just from a, um. You know, research and insights perspective, understanding women as whole lives. I know Des you’re really pos passionate about what we can learn from ethnographies and research and online focus groups, um, or social listening.
And so just thinking of women as this way [00:39:00] instead of our women’s health campaign. So that was probably way too many bullet points, but I get really excited about this.
Desiree Duncan: Oh, this is good. So yes, definitely focus on like who women actually are to really reach them. All right, so we will wrap, you know, uh, thank you all for listening. Don’t forget that we wanna hear from you. So shoot us an email at no normal@bpdhealthcare.com so that your questions may be featured in our next episode.
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