Full episode transcript.

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Stephanie Wierwille (00:01)

This is the No Normal Show brought to you by BPD. This is where we leave all things status quo, traditional, old school, and boring in the dust. And we celebrate the new, the powerful, the innovative, the future, all related to how brands can lead the way in health. Hello, hello, I am your co -host Stephanie, Wearable EVP of engagement. And I'm joined today by Chris Wickline, SVP of strategy. Hi, Chris.

Kris Wickline (00:26)

Happy Friday, Stephanie.

Stephanie Wierwille (00:29)

It is happy Friday. It is, we're coming to you from Friday, June 21st, and we are gonna hit a pretty interesting, pretty complex, pretty wild headline. We're gonna go deep into it. This is a bite -sized, short news flash by no normal episode. Usually we hit several episodes, but Chris, when you and I saw this a few days ago, we thought, hmm, let's go.

Kris Wickline (00:56)

This is a topic worthy of a single Newsflash episode.

Stephanie Wierwille (01:00)

That's right. It's especially relevant to our audience of healthcare marketers. I think if you think about healthcare and marketing, this is both of those in one and a really interesting way. So that's a bit of a drum roll, but I'll just give a highlight on what the headline is. And Chris definitely want to hear your thoughts. And then I know we'll, we'll take this in a variety of directions. So it hit on Monday of this week, June 17th, that the U S surgeon general called on Congress.

to require social platforms, social media platforms to display warning labels to alert users to the potential hazards, many mental health hazards that platforms pose specifically to teenagers and their mental health. So this has been something that's bubbling for years, I would say. It's been bubbling up the fact that we're learning more and more and seeing more research that social media in various ways,

can have a major impact on children and teens' mental health. But I think it's quite new news that now the Surgeon General is saying there should be a warning label. That's a pretty extreme statement. So I'll just give a little bit more detail on what he said. In a New York Times op -ed that he penned, he says, quote, the mental health crisis among young people is an emergency. And social media has emerged as an important contributor. And he cites some stats that I think we're all probably aware of the mental health crisis that he's referring to.

but he specifically says that social media is an important contributor. So he says those adolescents that spend more than three hours a day on social actually have double the risk of anxiety and depression. And in fact, when he says spend more than three hours a day, the average in this age group is almost five hours, 4 .8 hours. So let that sink in and we can come back and talk about that.

But he also says nearly half of adolescents say that social media makes them feel worse, specifically worse about their bodies. So those are just some examples. Let me take a little breath here. This is a lot to take in. Chris, what was your first blush reaction when you saw this?

Kris Wickline (03:13)

Well, my first honest reaction was, thank God my child is 28 years old. So that was one reaction, feeling for all the parents out there. The second was just, the statistics were really mind blowing, Stephanie. I mean, it really was. It also forced me to kind of look at my own behavior. I think one of the first questions it raised for me is if, as we think about our world in healthcare,

Stephanie Wierwille (03:17)

Mm -hmm.

Kris Wickline (03:40)

And we think about the fact that even consumers, you know, we've done a lot of research with consumers over the years. And when consumers think about health, they don't just think about physical health. They think about health in a much broader sense. They think about their mental health. They think about their social health. They think about cognitive health and their physical health. And so what it left me thinking is, my God, what a tsunami this bodes for the broader world of health and healthcare.

you know, in the coming years when, you know, when we're talking about the, you know, the, the mental health emergency, we've been talking about that for a long time, but now specifically calling out, you know, social media as a contributor, what does that mean? You know, what does that mean for how, what we need to do?

Stephanie Wierwille (04:26)

Yeah, and the correlation, you know, there's a lot of studies being done here and we'll get into some of those, but there is starting to emerge that there's actually a correlation and even a causation here where just to recite those stats, you know, those who spend a significant amount of time on social face double the risk of anxiety and depression. That is significant.

So to your point, Chris, anxiety and depression is something that is absolutely affecting kids and teens. We see this, but it is in the lens of many of our clients' eyes and many providers' eyes, perhaps the number one health issue that's on the minds of teens and parents right now. So when we think about health broadly, to your point,

It's not just physical health and this is perhaps the priority thing that's on people's minds.

Kris Wickline (05:24)

Yeah, I mean, you know, we did research a few years ago that showed that when parents of children are thinking about health, yes, they think about physical health, but for the most part, physical health isn't the most top of mind thing because by and large, most children are physically healthy. By nature, they're younger, they're growing, they're developing, but you know, there's so much more sensitivity around what it means to be raising a human from a mental health point of view than there is a physical health point of view.

And that's not to minimize the physical health piece. It just is much more top of mind, right? Children aren't running around sick. They are running around with phones in their hands, right? Yes, literally, literally.

Stephanie Wierwille (05:52)

Yeah.

Literally.

Yeah. Okay. So let's unwind some of this research. So first of all, speaking of kids and teens and families, new research in JAMA's Pediatrics Journal has studied this. There's a lot of studies that have come out on this in the last year plus, but this one specifically shows that social media causes changes in teens' brains. And I think we're learning more and more about what those changes look like. But this specifically, just to double click in on it,

says that those who use social media more frequently, back to that frequently thing is key, show greater sensitivity to social feedback. So what does that mean? That means that information that's coming through that is social in nature, not social media, but social in terms of people, the feedback you're getting from others, you're more sensitized to it. And it ties into your motivations and your desires. So the researchers are clear to say, we don't know if that's a good or a bad thing. And in fact, there could be pros and cons.

Additionally, just two days ago on Wednesday, the New York Times came out with an article that pushed back on the Surgeon General's announcement where some researchers who study social media and mental health said that his statement is too broad. He said, social media is associated, back to that correlation causation type of thing, it's associated with mental health harms for adolescents. And the researchers said, yes, and there's nuances, right? It depends.

It's not just about amount of time spent. It's also about what they're doing online, what content they're reading, what they're seeing. Is that content, for example, about self -harm? Is that content related to eating disorders? Is that content related to views of your own body and maybe leading to body dysmorphia, bullying, all of that? So I think the takeaway is it's really nuanced. But I'll pause. What do you think, Chris?

Kris Wickline (08:00)

Sure, it's nuanced, right? I mean, sure it's nuanced. There's always gonna be some positives and maybe we don't know the causation, but I guess, you know, fundamentally it comes down to where there's smoke, there's fire, right? Where there is smoke, there's fire. And we see plenty of examples in sometimes in our daily lives, right? Of where there's smoke, there's fire. So the question to me becomes, you know, we might wait 10 years to prove the negative impacts.

Do we want to wait 10 years? I mean, I think that was what was interesting in this, in the surgeon general's statement, he made the comment, the moral test of any society is how well it protects its children. So the question becomes from a health point of view, do we wait for all, or do we start at least being, you know, being thoughtful about the guidelines, having conversations? I mean, you know, I think it was a year and a half, two years ago, the surgeon general talked about physicians, nurses.

should be having conversations with parents, with children during their checkups. How are they, you know, what kind of screen time are they spending? How are they looking at social media? How do we as, you know, healthcare marketing and communicators kind of put a face to our communities? We are the face of public, like it or not, we are the face of, you know, of public health to many of our communities. So how are we helping our communities kind of?

understand the challenges, understand guidelines, understand being a credible source of information and helping parents and kids navigate this.

Stephanie Wierwille (09:38)

Yeah, wow. I mean, your point about where there's smoke, there's fire. It really reflects what the Surgeon General, Dr. Vivek Murthy, was noting, which is he says, we don't have the luxury of waiting years until we know the full extent of social media's impact. So that kind of flies right in the face of, yes, let's research more. Let's figure it out. Let's learn more. And also, let's act as well.

Kris Wickline (09:55)

Yeah.

Stephanie Wierwille (10:04)

so we can do both at the same time. And I think, you know, we'll talk, we'll spend a whole, we'll spend some moments thinking about what can healthcare marketers do specifically, but I think one key thing is, you know, how can health organizations, one, take action and to your point, have conversations in their communities and also contribute to the research that's being done in this area.

Kris Wickline (10:27)

Yeah. I mean, you know, I think it's tough, right? I think, look, we say we're healthcare marketing and communicators. I will confess, I come more from the marketing angle of things. What's the business? What's the business need? How do we help our businesses, right? And sure, you know, that by and large means that I get sucked into thinking about the physical health, the things that we do, the services that people need.

At the same time, again, we are in many of our communities, as I said before, kind of the face of public health. So what does it mean for us to be there kind of helping our communities? I think we think about, hey, there's an opportunity for a brand to really lean in, right? You get out of being a, we talk a lot about brand. We talk a lot about, are you a promotional brand? Do you step out of that and earn the hearts and minds of the people in your community by,

by shining the light on more meaningful health issues, this is one opportunity to do it. But at a bare minimum, the question becomes just how do you approach our communities to have conversations about what this means, not just today, but what it could mean for tomorrow and the future of the future of kids, the future of their health, right?

Stephanie Wierwille (11:43)

Yeah, so let's talk about some things specifically for healthcare marketers and communicators. And I think there's a lot of different options of how to think about this, right? There's probably no one specific blanket you must do XYZ in response. So I'm just going to ask you, Chris, so think with that marketer hat on, we as marketers have a lot of advertising rerun on social media. We have a lot of presence on social media. We see paid social driving our business, especially in a service line landscape. How...

What's your take on how do you balance leveraging a platform that we're starting to learn has direct, potentially, direct negative implications on health that also is a platform that drives our business? How do you, do you balance that? Do you worry about it, I guess, is the first question. Does it matter?

Kris Wickline (12:31)

Well, I mean, you know, it's hard to say the first reaction is, am I a hypocrite if I use social media to promote my organization? Right. But I think the next part says, well, but you have an opportunity. It's a platform that reaches people, but how do you use it to reach people for good? Right. How do you use it to reach people with, with good information? It's out there. So the question becomes, how are you using it to kind of be the truth sayer? How are you using it to help people?

find credible information, parents find credible information. Again, are you using it in a way that tries to engage people in more nefarious ways or are you, what's your way in here? I guess that's the way I think about it.

Stephanie Wierwille (13:23)

Yeah, I think that's an important starting place because what we're not saying is, okay, pull all your spend, right? I mean, advertisers did that a few years ago during the Facebook ban. And guess what? It didn't make any change in the world. First of all, advertisers came back because we know it's a key place to reach people. Secondly, it didn't change meta and we could have a whole...

you know, we could go back into the rabbit hole of all the challenging things that Metta does and we have on this show in the past. So I think, you know, we've covered that, but that's probably not the answer. So I like your point, Chris, about how do you leverage it knowing that you can reach parents and families and, you know, consumers of all kinds and even teens? How do you use it to share accurate information in a world where there's so much misinformation?

I think that's a great starting place.

Kris Wickline (14:20)

Yeah, I mean, and just naturally aligns with the mission that we have in the world and in our communities, right?

Stephanie Wierwille (14:27)

Yeah, I think the second one, and you've touched on it a little bit, but it is how are we educating people? And so this is maybe both in the marketing and communication realm, but especially communication realm. How are we out there in our communities talking about this issue and how are we helping people think about it? Because I think that the general mainstream, especially parenting crowd is recognizing that this is an issue. There's more and more news about screen time. There's more and more conversation about it.

But a lot of that conversation is not coming from, you know, researchers and scientists and physicians to this extent. So that feels like if we're trend spotting, that's a good next wave of trends to be thinking about is how do we help people understand, you know, not all screen time is bad screen time, not all social media is bad social media. How do, you know, how do we help people understand? And then let's go a layer further. How can we even partner maybe with platforms to help develop

strong offerings there. I think that's an interesting realm too.

Kris Wickline (15:29)

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that there's an opportunity for, you know, for somebody who kind of maybe just looks at it in more of a way to differentiate themselves, right?

Stephanie Wierwille (15:42)

Yeah.

Yeah. And then the last thing is what would it look like to take a larger stand? This doesn't go for everybody, but children's hospitals. So Chris, you gave some examples and we were chatting earlier about, you know, health systems that have initiatives around this. I mean, for example, we work with the University of Iowa, their Scanlan Center for School Mental Health is focused explicitly on school mental health, on improving mental health among

kids and doing that through educators. That's a great example. I think there's others out there. So there may be organizations that can truly take a stand in ways that others aren't. Are there any examples that come to mind for you?

Kris Wickline (16:23)

Well, I mean, you know, in thinking about, you know,

struggling here. I'm sorry, I'm not sure where to go with this.

Stephanie Wierwille (16:33)

No problem. We can just, we can come back to that.

Kris Wickline (16:35)

I feel like I'm not giving you, I feel like I'm not giving a lot of meat here. I think what I could say is, you know, I mean, you know, we know that even primary care physicians are looking for resources to help parents and teens and children, I should say. We know that primary care physicians are looking for resources to help parents and their children. Mental health issues.

are at the forefront. I mean, when we've done research with pediatricians, it's staggering and they don't have the resources, right? So, I mean, I'd say one unique thing is what can your system do to kind of be the go -to resource to help primary care physicians with tools, with discussion starters, with anything that can help to open the conversation up between parents and their children, not around mental health and the impact of screen time.

I mean, that's a starting place. My bet is that most don't even approach it, and yet it's one of the biggest issues. So how can we make that easier? Is that something that we have a weigh in on?

Stephanie Wierwille (17:43)

Yeah, that's great. I think that's really, really a strong example is not just focusing on the consumer audience, but also on the employee audience and physician audience and how can we improve that there. I think it's an interesting nugget of a platform from a brand standpoint too, when we think about becoming a health brand, which I know we've talked about before. So there's a million different options and paths here.

but it's certainly a interesting conversation. And when we saw this headline a few days ago, we just felt like it was super, super relevant and super interesting. And I'm sure the news will continue to cover it and we'll see more come out over the coming days.

Kris Wickline (18:25)

Yeah, and I think at a bare minimum, I mean, it's easy to say, okay, that's a tragic thing to see and then move on with our day. You know, again, as with anything else, we may not be able to be, you know, create a brand platform where we lean in on, you know, on mental health issues. That may not be something possible within our organization, but I guess I would say, you know, what can we do in the communities that we serve? Because that is part of our job. It may not, we may not.

We may not see that, we may not kind of lean into that, but I think, you know, we can't deny the issue that this has not only today, but kind of in the future of health for our communities. So where is our role? If nothing else, having the conversation, where is our role, you know?

Stephanie Wierwille (19:05)

Yeah.

Yeah. So maybe we wrap there because I think that's a good point to end on. I heard two things in what you just said. Number one is with an eagle eye for the future, which is a lot of what our job is as healthcare marketers and on this No Normal show, we're trying to navigate a future that is not normal. With an eagle eye on the future, this will continue to be an issue and I would say it's going to just grow further and further over the next decade plus. So how can you as a healthcare marketer plan for it? And number two,

What kind of conversations can you start internally? Even just philosophical ones like we're having here. It's an interesting topic. So I think that's a good space to land on. All right. Let's wrap up this not so bite sized newsflash by NoNormal. Thank you for everyone listening and joining. If you have thoughts on this hot topic, let us know at nonormal at bpdhealthcare .com.

And until next time, don't be satisfied with the normal because it never will be normal in this realm of healthcare marketing. Instead, push that no normal and we will talk to you next time.