Stephanie Wierwille: [00:00:00] Welcome to the No Normal Show, brought to you by BPDA marketing services firm that delivers the future to healthcare’s leading brands. This show is where we leave all things status quo, traditional old school, and boring in the dust, and instead we celebrate the new, the powerful, the innovative, the bold, all focused around the future of healthcare, marketing and communications.
I’m Stephanie Weel, e VP of Engagement, and I’m joined by Desiree Duncan, VP of Health Equity and Inclusion. Hello, Dez.
Desiree Duncan: Hi, and welcome back from the land of all the mountains up in Utah, salt Lake City. How was it? Was it beautiful?
Stephanie Wierwille: Oh yeah. It was so lovely. Yes. I was in Salt Lake City, uh, Utah this week, and I’ve never been des I know you lived there for a while, but it is so pretty with all the mountains and, um, snow capped mountains and hiking. You lived there for a while, right?
Desiree Duncan: I did. I spent the spring there and it was, yeah, it’s ridiculously gorgeous, like the mountains are right there and like you said, they’re like [00:01:00] snowcapped still and it’s amazing. The, I do remember just feeling, I don’t know, I didn’t really connect with a ton of people, but it just felt like a very supportive, uh, community.
I could just kind of tell that they’re like all about kind of taking care of one another, which. Yeah, it was always interesting.
Stephanie Wierwille: It was, it was really nice. And I think being there the week of Juneteenth and Pride month, um, it was, it was very colorful in the best way. Lots of celebrations happening, so that was really lovely to see. And I would say even more celebrations than, than in Nashville, which is surprising. But, um, it was really nice.
Desiree Duncan: Yeah, they, yeah. I love that idea of just like celebration, celebrating like ourselves, our people, human just, yeah. Like finding ways to just kind of bring joy and like just support each other through like whatever life’s ups and downs are. But yeah, it is a very vibrant community in that way.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah. Yeah, it was really lovely. Did you have, a nice travel, week the [00:02:00] last couple weeks for yourself? I.
Desiree Duncan: I, I did, I mean, this, this part of the country is just like insanely like mind, blowingly beautiful. Um, like it’s where the terrain changes. So like the drive to Salt Lake was actually like all of the, the Red Clay in the deserts of, you know, Utah or Arizona and what have you, which was a. Beautiful in one way.
And then coming up here, I’m now in Seattle living my best Pacific Northwest and 60 degree weather. the drive here was like with fall or fall, geez. Uh, green trees that are high up in waterfalls. That’s what I meant by the falls waterfalls. I was trying to get out, um, just the water in greenery and it’s just like, wow.
Wow. Wow, wow. Like Tennessee is super green, but like our hills, like our smoke, our smoky mountains, like tho, those are nothing compared to like the real
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah, compared to Mount Rainier.
Desiree Duncan: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Wierwille: Um, yeah. It’s [00:03:00] funny you say fall ’cause we are moving quickly through the year and I know, um, we’re not there yet, but we will be very soon. So, uh, I thought it would be kind of interesting to maybe take a look back since it is halfway through the year. We are at our, almost our halfway point, I think the first day of summers to.
Tomorrow, I believe even. Um, and just reflect a little bit on some of the key themes we’ve talked about on the show, some of the key trends we’re seeing in the space and in the industry. Um, so Des I’ll ask you first, uh, what are your, what are you seeing? I.
Desiree Duncan: Yeah. Um, I mean, I know on this podcast we talk of course a lot about ai ai, but what was interesting to see this year was like vibe this, vibe that. Vibe, coding, vibe, marketing. I’m like, okay, everything’s a vibe I guess now. and then along those lines, kind of the future of work, like what does work look like? Um, and then, you know, I’m always a lover of hearing this, but like video being king and her queen [00:04:00] of, you know, content about everything is really, a lot of things have been really geared towards, um, boosting and optimizing those who are posting more video. So it’s, yeah, it’s all, all very interesting. about
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah. Um, yeah, as I look back over eight. One of the year, I think we’ve seen more focus on internal comms than ever before. Um, of course, internal com internal comms has always been a critical strategy, uh, in marketing communications, but it just feels like with patient, um, or sorry, with with employee retention being such a need and you know, physician.
Retention being such a need. We’re seeing a lot of focus around how to bring the brand to life internally, but also how to communicate, how to retain employees. So that’s, I think, been a growing trend. Um, the other one on the patient side is patient retention. So speaking of retention, uh, I’m seeing more and more of a shift.
Uh, you know, patient acquisition is a continued focus of [00:05:00] course, but there’s a, an growing focus on patient retention. Um, so that means. Thinking about the experience, thinking about ways to communicate to patients on an ongoing basis, um, in addition to getting new folks in the door.
Desiree Duncan: Yeah, and a along those lines of communication, you know, just, I. This has also been kind of a year of like, wait and see, or let me f I’m trying to figure out what’s going on. Um, but around the communication it’s like, okay, what language can we use to actually reach our, uh, communities, our consumers now, given just some of the, um, executive orders, there’s a lot of confusion around, you know, how do we move forward on the work that we’ve been so focused on, um, making sure that we’re giving healthcare access to everyone, uh, especially when there’s.
Um, you know, rules around, you know, gender expression. And so some might take that a little too literally, where it means like, oh, we can’t do [00:06:00] women’s, you know, health services or, or campaigns anymore. And I’m like, I don’t know that that’s necessarily true. Uh, like of course like we always wanna be mindful of what, what’s kind of going on in the world, but like, you know, women are the biggest leaders of healthcare, so we absolutely still need to be talking to them.
But it’s just, uh, yeah, that time of. don’t know. Just wait and see. Figure it out. I don’t know.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah. Yeah. And um, it’s not the first time healthcare’s been in that mode, right. Of having to. To be both proactive and reactive. Um, but I think one thing that you’re talking about, we’ll discuss in our main topic, which is how to be more personal than ever before and speak to folks in, in their language in the ways that they need us.
But, um, that’s a spoiler alert for what’s to come. So. I just have a couple upfront items to note before we get into our headlines and main topics. Um, so today, uh, just a reminder that BPD has a really, really great paper out that explores [00:07:00] perspectives of of the payer provider landscape. It’s called Good People Flawed Systems, and I love that the title is kind of a spoiler for the bottom line, which is around the perspectives of health insurance and employees regarding their employers regarding patient.
Or payers, um, so you know, good people, but a flawed system. So the report is now available for download and you can find that link in our show notes. And then always a reminder that uh, if you can’t get enough in the normal show, be sure to subscribe to our newsletter, the no normal Rewind, which recaps all of our discussions and more.
And we usually are able to kind of link out to the articles we’ve talked about, give some additional stats. So we’ll make sure that we do that this week as well. So, speaking of the headlines, we’ve got two headlines and one, um, I’m really excited about because Des, a couple weeks ago we highlighted, um, uh, well, maybe highlight is not the right word.
We debated this discussion around is brand [00:08:00] dead. Um, and that came from Scott Galloway, um, and, and, and a lot of the virality around his. Statement at can last year, I believe, or a few years ago where he said, brand is dead. Brand doesn’t matter anymore. So if you miss that episode. Go back and check it out.
We dug deeply into that. But what was fascinating and we, what we loved is he’s now at can, this year, can is happening, um, over in France and Kara Swisher, um, and he did a, uh, live podcast from Canne and it’s actually started with him saying, you know, I really angry the industry. I’m the angry pillow. I’m the punching bag.
And he’s like, yeah, yeah, brand still matters. Brand still matters. It’s just that mass advertising is dead. And I think Dez, that’s where we got to in our podcast. We really hit that really home. So Scott Galloway, thanks for listening, um, to the No Normal Show, and we’ll see you next year at Cannes.
Desiree Duncan: Yeah, when I was listening to that, I was like, oh, Knox Scott Galloway actually listening to the No Normal Show. Uh, ’cause like one episode was about like, yes, [00:09:00] brand is very much apartment. And then I think like the last episode we were talking about, the beginning about like, you know, advertising not being, you know, the big show that it used to be.
And there’s like all of these different worlds and ways that we show up. So yeah, I feel like we’re like, I don’t know, maybe we’re viral. Who knows?
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah, there you go. We’re, we’re, we’re the fodder for, uh, what’s happening at at Cannes. But anyway, um, so the other headline, we have a little less self-serving headline is around Amazon. So for all those who remember Joe Public 2030, we’ve talked about that a lot on this podcast. Um, and of, yes, of course you should read the book, Joe Public 2030, which is.
Five bold predictions for the future of healthcare. One of those predictions is called the Funnel Wars, which is all around the changing shifting guard of the new entrance. Um, it’s kind of been one step forward, two steps back in, its in, its, um, in the trend. Uh, so we, we touch on that trend about Amazon One Medical and Walgreens and [00:10:00] Apple and Walmart Health, and we’ve covered that over.
Over the course of the last months and years, but an update in that area is around Amazon restructuring its healthcare business. So this just landed in the newsfeeds a couple days ago, and it’s um, uh, uh, just a, an overview of the new divisions or the division structuring that Amazon is doing. So those new divisions include one medical, Amazon Health Services and pharmacy.
Um, and it’s really, you know, kind of highlighting the people that are leading that and the. Specific areas of Amazon Health services, of one Medical and of pharmacy. So it’s just an interesting, uh, little glance at where Amazon is going. Des, as you saw this, what, what were your thoughts, um, given that we’ve been talking about this trend for a while.
Desiree Duncan: Yeah, and just seeing like all of these, the new entrants, you know, these last several years, like, oh, we’re gonna, we’re gonna do healthcare better than the systems that have been doing it for forever. but, you know, having to kind of [00:11:00] backtrack on some of that because it is a bit more complicated, but I, what I will say, and I know with some of this restructuring, a big focus will be around like the pharmacy and like Amazon obviously, you know. Leading the charge on, you know, supply chain, uh, delivery and what have you. So that idea of being able to get your, uh, prescriptions delivered to you, like perhaps even same day is like a major, um, just especially given like some of the ups in mostly downs that some of the big pharmacies like Walgreens have been experiencing these last couple years. Uh, I don’t know. I used to be like a Walgreens devotee. It was always kind of my. My go-to my, like my bodega because it has like, everything’s got snacks. Um, but I’ve noticed especially over this last year or two of just kind of the decline you know, what’s on the shelves or being a able to access and like, depending on what neighbor your hood you’re in, you know, the pharmacy line is.
Gonna be a little bit ridiculous. Um, so that [00:12:00] idea of being able to really kind of hone in and harness that, um, that pharmacy and like that prescription world, uh, will be huge for them. But yeah. What are, what, what were some of your takes?
Stephanie Wierwille: Well, I think I continue to feel like the funnel wars is not over. I think it’s easy to feel that way because to your point, you know, folks like Walgreens are a little bit out of the race for now. Walmart for sure. Um, and it’s just so easy to be like, yep, we told you so. But I think I continue to say, don’t count on Amazon.
Um, they have this model of failing fast and so yes, they folded Haven in 2021. Yes, they closed Amazon Care in 2022. One. Medical was acquired in 2023 and then Amazon Clinic was folded in, and now this is just the next step of the healthcare story is this sort of restructuring. And what I liked was double it, clicking into it.
One interesting area inside of Amazon Health Services is their focus on strategic growth and network development. So that is now a new division and it’s all about building third party services and partnerships. So it includes health system partnerships, it includes payer [00:13:00] contracting, it includes real estate teams.
Um, so I probably went too far into trying to predict where they’re going, but you know, they already have quite a few health system partnerships in play, whether that’s Hackensack Meridian or Cleveland Clinic or, um, or many, many more. They’re currently in 19 states as well as DC so I’m gleaning they’re looking for more partners.
They’re expanding to even more regions and states. And so I think for those who are health systems, especially in larger urban areas. Plan for one Medical coming into your world and start thinking about should you partner, should you not partner? What does that look like? It doesn’t have to be one medical, but what are other partnerships like that?
So I guess if I’m gonna put a prediction anywhere, that would be it. Um, don’t count out Amazon and, you know, explore their strategic growth division.
Desiree Duncan: They always figure out a way, don’t they? They
Stephanie Wierwille: Uh.
Desiree Duncan: yeah. I, I, I’m actually being here in like the home of Amazon. Seattle, Seattle. I remember the last time I was here, this was about four years ago, and that’s when they had like the [00:14:00] Amazon stores where you just kind of like scan your, uh, QR code for your account in, and like whatever you pick up and walk out with, it’s just all like, you don’t have to go through a checkout. Um, I feel like I haven’t been seeing as many of those, uh, as much. Uh, I feel like I’ve seen it more in airports. Um, but yeah, like I’m always just kind of blown away by like, what. They figure out. Um, but yeah, to your point, like don’t, at least out of all of those from the funnel, don’t count this one out.
Stephanie Wierwille: You know, I’ve never thought of this until you just made me think of this, Dez, but Amazon, really, Amazon Go could easily be the new Walgreens. So you’re right in in airports. Amazon Go is kind of the bodega that has everything I. In Seattle, when I was there a few weeks ago, I needed a new cable charging thing.
I forget what it was, some kind of charging device. And my first thought was, I’ll just go to an Amazon go store. And I went and it was only snacks and I was very confused. But you talking about that makes me [00:15:00] think, why wouldn’t they bring together pharmacy and snacks and everyday items and retail into one place along with one medical.
Desiree Duncan: Oh, ideas. You’re spreading them
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah, I don’t know. I’m just dreaming here. But anyway.
Desiree Duncan: that makes sense.
Stephanie Wierwille: Um, all right. We’ll move into our main topic, uh, which is called the a b, CDEs of Marketing. It’s a fun framework, um, that we’ve been following. Um, I think we’ve mentioned a couple weeks ago, Rashad Tobacco Walla, who’s a thought leader in the marketing and communications world.
And, um, a couple weeks ago we referenced him in a conversation around AI and search, and specifically this idea of conversational marketing, but that’s actually part of a larger framework that he’s put together, which got us thinking about all kinds of things. Um, the A, b, C DES of marketing he put together several years ago, it’s.
It, I’ll just explain what the acronym means. Um, but recently it [00:16:00] was relaunched with the ABCD’s of reinvented marketing. And so we’re gonna kind of go through this and talk about its application to healthcare and which parts we agree with and which we don’t. And, um, you know, kind of pull in, pull in all of that.
But just to set up. What each of those letters stand for. Um, a is for audience. So audiences are shifting and they’re shifting from this idea of passive consumer audiences. To people who are focused on interaction, but I love the phrase moving from consumers to people with God-like power. So even reorienting how marketers think about audiences as it’s not this group of consumers who are just sitting back and consuming goods and services and content.
It’s people who are actually, you know, now empowered with agentic AI and empowered with, um. All kinds of decision making structures, and so we’ll dig into that. Um, the second one is B of course, [00:17:00] and B stands for brands. So the way that brands are built today is different. Shout out to Scott Galloway. This is what we do agree that he said, he, he said in the, at the, in the can episode that.
Brand is still important and real and valuable, but how brands are built are different today and we 1000% agree with that. Um, so we’ll dig into that. C is for content. So content is changing. Content is now about poetry, not just plumbing. I. Which I love, so I’ll just leave that here and we’ll come back to that.
D is for data. Data is the key to the future of marketing, and E is for enterprise because organizations and enterprises have to resculpt themselves into new forms. They have to build new muscles and they have to, you know, reinvent themselves over and over and over again. So enterprises should be flexible and malleable in the future instead of status quo.
So I’ll pause there. The ABC DES of marketing, I feel like this is Sesame Street. Does.
Desiree Duncan: Yes, I, and I love it. I, [00:18:00] I ran across it and I was like, oh, this would be a really great kind of, uh, thing to unpack, especially given like the theme of the last couple of episodes of like, you know, where is marketing, what is the fu future of marketing? Uh, if brand is not dead, it’s very much well alive, but like, advertising might be dead, but like marketing, like it’s, it’s all under the umbrella of marketing and like, kind of where it’s going.
So excited to, to jump in on all the A, B, C, D. EFG element ops.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yes, we’ll write a whole alphabet. Um, so let’s start with a, let’s start at the very beginning ’cause this is the sound of music. Um, we’ll start with audiences. Uh, so Des I might just kick it to you first ’cause you’re really, um, all about audiences and audience trends and audience insights. But, uh, what was your take on this idea that audiences are shifting?
We’re no longer passive. We’re in a, we’re we’re interactive.
Desiree Duncan: Yeah. Uh, we’ll touch a bit more of this on the content side, but like, yeah, now [00:19:00] we, because we have so many different ways to reach audiences and audiences to reach us, um, that it is very much this interactive space and that it isn’t just, uh, I mean demographics, I mean, demographics are dead. you know, people aren’t a monolith, they’re not gonna make a decision based off of this one like, piece of demographic that they.
Might identify with. Right? Um, so this idea of being able to, you know, not only just, you know, see a spot, you know, see a, a, a billboard, but you’re also engaging with that actual brand on social media channels as we’ve shared stories of like people kind of interacting with like, um, the ly the Duolingo Owl story. Um, but like all of these different ways. Um, but yeah, the, the idea that we. We really need to be paying more attention to who people actually are and not just what the definitions of like who they are based off of something that’s super arbitrary and doesn’t make sense for everyday people anymore.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yes, a [00:20:00] thousand times. To your point about how demographic graphics are dead, it’s so much more the demographics and even more than segmentation.
So I love this quote in here, which is that it’s not just about a cow of a mass audience moving to a stake of a segmented audience. Rather, we are aggregating single pieces of mince into a hamburger. So that probably sounds like gibberish. Let me, let me come. I had to read it five times before I was like, oh, I get it.
So basically he’s saying. Past life. We were thinking about demographics. We were thinking about, this is my mass audience of women ages 25 to 54. That’s like the cow approach, right?
Desiree Duncan: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Wierwille: we moved on to the segmented approach. So that’s the stake approach. It’s the, it’s the cuts of a cow, like where you’re, where when.
I feel like when I lived in Texas that. Picture of a cow with the different cuts of the cow was everywhere I went and it’s like, here’s where the filet comes from. You know? That’s the segmented audience approach. That’s my, okay. My women, 25 to 54 breaks down into these segments, these six [00:21:00] segments of women.
Now I’m gonna have six marketing strategies to those, fast forward to now, and it’s about re aggregating single pieces of mints into a hamburger, which like mind blown. So what that means is. No, actually now it’s the individuals and because of the data we have, because of the content we can create, because of AI’s ability to do personalization at scale, we’re actually able to speak directly to that human, and maybe not even just that human as a whole, but that unique moment in time, that unique experience, and that means that we’re gonna need.
Thousands and thousands of micro strategies andtactics and segments. Does that make any sense or, I am I still speaking gibberish? Does.
Desiree Duncan: No, it, it does, and it’s something we’ve been kind of contemplating, uh, about, know, it, it almost needs to be a part of a larger ecosystem. Like right now, you know, things are kind of, uh, segmented and the way that we’re doing things. So this team over here is [00:22:00] doing the creative. This team over here might be doing the BA buy, and this team over here is like, focus on the audience.
But like, all of this needs to be in lockstep. Um, and like something we’ll get into a little bit later, the data, you know, imagine a world. That we now can do with ai where all of these things are like communicating with each other at the same time. So we can optimize real time. So we can send that specific, um, that line, that, that copy that, uh, question to that direct person.
From a media standpoint, we know where they are. We know, you know, what they’re feeling, kind of what their values are and like make it more of a real time than just, Hey, we’re gonna put out a bunch of. Generic. A creative that’s speaking to that, you know, monolith of an audience of women ages, you know, 25 to to 54.we can really get into like, you know, who these women actually are, and send them the message that they need at that same time.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, that’s, I feel like now you’ve set me [00:23:00] up perfectly de to be like, and, and that’s why at BPD we’ve built all of this under one, one roof. But, um, but I think to the point of, you know, it’s. It there’s a point we’re gonna make in a little bit about poetry, not just plumbing, which is, media has been this darling that’s been able to hyper target and that’s been exciting and awesome.
And that’s what created things like the ability to do precision marketing, right? Which, which we do all the time and it’s super powerful. But now what we’re able to do is actually have the creative and the content, that can also be personal, not just personalized. So I guess we are not following Sesame Street rules.
Des I just jumped from A to C. but that’s kind of the point of, of content is changing, um, which is the importance of being highly personal, not just personalized.
Desiree Duncan: That line around the poetry, not just plumbing. I was like, oh yeah. Um, I. So with content, I’ll kind of like the way I was thinking about this is a, a, a big piece of this is around, or one of the, [00:24:00] the bullets around this is like response and not just creation, right? And we talked about audiences being more super engaged with actual brands these days. So, you know, follow me in the time capsule. I wanna say it’s probably like 10 years ago at this point. but do you remember the guy that was, uh, singing? This was around like Thanksgiving time. Um, this guy had discovered Patty’s pies. Uh, this is like Patti LaBelle. She had just gotten a contract, I think it was with Walmart, uh, where her pies, her sweet potato pies were gonna be for sale at the stores, which was like huge.
A huge deal. But what made that actually explode was that, you know, this guy who has a voice, who has a lovely and you know, incredible voice. He got onto the internet, he got onto his social media to just like sing about how incredible Pat’s pies were, and he was even kind of. Singing and her vernacular and all of that stuff.
And it just went super viral. And I think back, I’m like, wow, that was one of the first times that like [00:25:00] you essentially a content creator, uh, was able to amplify a brand. So now cut to today, you know, we have like, you know, feels like millions of content creators and that essentially they are such a huge part of the social marketing pie.
Pun intended. Um, so it’s always just kind of cool to see, you know, what, we as individual humans, like our connection to a brand, um, can really spark a whole nother world of like how we’re actually reaching and engaging with audiences,
Stephanie Wierwille: I love that example. I didn’t know about that example, but I’m gonna go look it up. That’s so interesting. And I, I love, I love that. I mean the, the summary of response versus just creation because um, I think it ties to what we were just talking about with audiences, which is audiences are. Have godlike power.
Audiences are creators, audiences have opinions. Let’s include them in in marketing, um, because talking at them just isn’t gonna work at all. Um, [00:26:00] so the other element of this, um, since we’re still on sea, we’ll go back to B, but um, the other elemented side content. We talked a little bit about this a couple episodes ago, but the answer economy versus the information economy, I hadn’t quite thought of it in this way specifically, so.
I feel like, you know, we’ve had the information economy, which is sort of like that early two thousands Google area era. Then we’ve had the attention economy, which is the social media era of just like the FOMO of, I’ve gotta get, I’ve gotta keep scrolling because I might miss something. And our attention has been monetized.
And now the answer economy, where answers are really, um, really the thing. So. We talked about that a few weeks ago. Um, and just the, the opportunities for healthcare. but it’s all part of this bigger content picture.
Desiree Duncan: It’s like that idea of like, we’re inundated with information now. It’s like I just want the answer. I don’t
Stephanie Wierwille: Yes,
Desiree Duncan: through all the things, like just
Stephanie Wierwille: I.
Desiree Duncan: God, tell me upfront like what it is I’m supposed to do to like heal from this like [00:27:00] thing I just did to myself for this pain that I have.
Stephanie Wierwille: Wow. I hadn’t connected. That does, but you’re right. The answer economy is the answer to the attention economy. We’ve, we’ve, we created this like major overload and I saw something the other day that was like, you know, our kids are gonna ask us. Did you really have a thing, have a search, a thing called a search engine, where you had to sift through all this information and open all those tabs?
Like how caveman like, is that? so the answer economy is, is the next version. Okay, let’s go back to B. So B as brands are shifting, Des, what was your take on this one?
Desiree Duncan: Yeah, I mean we, I feel like, again, like experience, right? Oh God, anytime I say this now I’m like, ugh. Like five, like two years from now, like, experience is dead. Um, it’s the idea of like not just communicating at. Uh, consumers at folks and, but actually like providing that experience. We’ve shared numerous examples of, you know, the brands that [00:28:00] provide the best experience, kind of win and experience isn’t just about, you know, we think experiential events or, you know.
Especially from a healthcare standpoint, it’s not necessarily about the like experience of like coming to the ER per se, but it’s that experience of like, how do we interact with your brand? Uh, how do we check in? Like what’s the ease of that? Like, is everything, um, connected? Um, so in a way that idea of, you know, building that trust through knowing that like my, um, my information is there, it’s taken care of, you know, that we, the company is thinking about all of the different, you know, resources and, and products to really kind of just keep making it better. Um, but that’s kind of getting more into product marketing. But curious, Stephanie, what, what, what was your takeaway on this one?
Stephanie Wierwille: Well, it’s very, it’s very close to what we’ve been talking about for the last few episodes, but I love this, this example that was given inside of this idea of brands are shifting the way that brands are built [00:29:00] or different, it’s through experiences, not just advertising. It’s through employee joy, it’s through trust.
So the example was something that Jeff Bezos said, um, which is, do you, should you spend 30% of your resources building a better product and 70% telling people about it, or should it be the other way around? Um, moving forward, it should be the other way around. IE you know, 70% of your resources building a wonderful product and experience and, and 30% telling people about it.
And I think at first at face value, that might be like, oh no, marketing budgets, which would are, are, are, are reducing. And that’s not how I see that. That to me is actually what should the focus of marketing be? Right? The focus of marketing should be. 70% of resources building a really incredible experience.
That includes things like patient experience, that includes things like how we communicate to patients, that includes how we are communicating and,retaining employees. Um, that includes CRM, that includes all of that, the digital front door and then [00:30:00] telling people about it is the, ideally, you know.
Advertising should be an experience itself. In my humble opinion, I think that the best advertising is actually an experience. It actually is a reflection of the product. It’s a reflection of the experience. It’s not just a, a flyer.
Desiree Duncan: Yeah, to your point around the, the employees, right? So also want your employees to be having that same experience, and I know you’ve been doing a great deal of work, uh, around this. Um, but like that’s so key that the. What you’re touting kind of as your experience, whether it’s through your branding, your marketing, your advertising, what have you, you know, you best be delivering on that actual experience once the patient arrives. And that’s all gonna be through your employees. Um, and that employee that that fills or colleague, that fills taken care of is going to take care of their patients. Um, but I know again, you’ve been doing quite a deal, uh, of that from that standpoint of embodying a brand.
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah. And it’s employees exactly [00:31:00] as you just said. It’s a, it’s employees being able to understand the brand and live and breathe it. So when we say taking care of employees, I think what we don’t mean is, oh, what do you need? Let’s give that to you. I mean, that’s certainly important as well, but it’s, this is what we stand for and this is who we are and how can you help us be that?
Um, so. You know, I think it’s interesting that employee Joy is called out in brand section that might not feel like a traditional approach, but I love that phrase, employee joy. I.
Desiree Duncan: You know, this is another like example. It’s not necessarily healthcare, but it has to do with experience. And it’s not just the experience of like the actual like service. You know, like we have within hospitals, hospitality, airlines, what have you, but it’s more about kind of world building. So there’s this brand called Kehl, James Patrick, uh, I think they’re like Instagram handles at kj. They. Have been coming to prominence, you know, the last like several years. But I remember I first discovered them just because their [00:32:00] Instagram account was just so world building, uh, around just that New England, you know, look and feel and like way of life that it like super sucked me in. I am no. No one’s New Englander. but I feel so connected just because of, you know, their storytelling that they’ve done. Like it’s, it’s seasonal, it’s, you know, they’re touching on all these different things they’re experiencing. They have, like, they have collected content and footage and video. Um. from years ago that they, replenish, um, to keep a on, on top of the, the season, but then also with bringing out some of their new, garments and accessories and what have you. But I love, like when brands like that, are able to just kind of create like this whole world, this, this essence that you then like, wanna subscribe to you, that I
Stephanie Wierwille: Mm.
Desiree Duncan: was a really cool.
Stephanie Wierwille: World creation is the phrase I’m taking away from that. Like that’s back to brands are shifting. It’s about experiences. What worlds can you create? And so that could be an aesthetic world, that could be a social [00:33:00] media, community based world. That could be an in real life world, that could be, you know, so many things.
Desiree Duncan: Yeah, the
Stephanie Wierwille: I love that.
Desiree Duncan: the group, like Facebook groups have been popping for a while now. Of course, the subreddits, have been jumping into that partnership with Google. You know, they’re showing up more prominently in searches. but yeah, more people wanna actually hear from actual humans about what their experience with that
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah.
Desiree Duncan: what that product is to then make a decision.
Stephanie Wierwille: Absolutely. Okay. Let’s cover d and e together. I’ll just touch these both and then des feel free to jump on which pieces resonate best with you. So data is d the key to the future of marketing. Um, I think that almost explains itself. I think we all understand that one. But what I thought was interesting is he broke this down into a few parts.
One is meaning versus math. Making the numbers actually, you know, far more meaningful. And two, is real time access and the ability to leverage data in real time to actually, hey, create worlds as [00:34:00] opposed to just. Moment in time, um, viewing. And then the E is enterprise. So organizations resculpting themselves, reforming themselves.
I love this phrase, this, the schizophrenic thrive. So it’s the Nvidia over intel. It’s the reinvent yourself constantly rethink things, constantly be updating, constantly be, you know, making new announcements over the intel, which is, you know, kind of the. Steady state, always on, um, type of organization. And this is not just as a brand standpoint, I don’t think brands should be schizophrenic.
That’s not the point here, but it’s the organizational model. How do you constantly rethink your org as time is just gonna speed up from an innovation standpoint? So, des, between d and e, what, what hit you?
Desiree Duncan: Well, definitely d but like kind of touching on the E and it’s, it’s shift. You have to shift with the times and like, yes, they are moving way too fast these days, but in order to stay relevant, you have to [00:35:00] stay up to speed and then. Pivot, you know, resculpt, recalculate, uh, how you do the things at once. but in order to do that, you do need that data. but so oftentimes to me, like data that meaning versus math, like really hit hard, uh, because make it make sense. Like, what do these numbers actually mean? I, I’ve been working with, and, you know, reports and, you know, talking with analysts about that, which they understand, but like, yeah, most of us don’t live in the numbers like you do, so, you know. Help me, like understand this. Like, so how can we actually tell a story around what this data is telling us? So what’s the meaning? So you tell me that, oh, we got, you know, this meant this rate of, you know, uh, clicks or, you know, engagement or what have you. But I’m like, okay, what am I supposed to do with that?
You know, a like, what, what’s a benchmark? What is that connected to? Uh, are we doing well considering where we are? Are we kind of really falling behind? Um, and then. How do we actually then shift, you [00:36:00] know, what we’re going to be doing based off of this information. Um, and then also getting into the real time access of that data.
If I have that data on, you know, real time and then I can make adjustments as the campaign is going, that’s going to result in far better outcomes than just waiting towards, you know, the. End of that. So the more to the point around like having everything kind of integrated under one roof, one partner, the more that we can do that, you know, the better we can like quickly optimize, you know, in that moment to really get to the outcomes that we need or reach the folks that we need.
If we’re seeing that like, oh. This piece of creative, this content, this copy isn’t working or this media channel, like how can we shift, or this audience or this thing has occurred in culture that now has completely shifted the meeting. You know, how can we quickly and stay, uh, on top of that, um, in a world where it feels like we’re kind of looking at past data.
Stephanie Wierwille: I’ll just add to meaning versus math that I think at the CMO level, really sometimes all you need is one [00:37:00] really meaningful number, just one. Not 55. And I would say, you know, our job as a partner and you know, marketers jobs as those large departments is to sift and find and be that anthropologist, you know, that really finds like, ooh, this is the juicy, meaningful metric.
And it’s simple and it’s obvious and it’s business oriented. And it’s something that A CMO could run into a CFO’s office, maybe not run walk. Calmly into the CFO’s office and say, this, this is, this is what we’ve done. Here’s why it matters. And it’s one number, not 55. So, um,
Desiree Duncan: Speaking the language of that au like we have our audiences now we know how to speak their language with the speaking, the language
Stephanie Wierwille: I, yeah.
Desiree Duncan: um, kind of surrounding leaders. To your point, it’s like, okay, what is that one metric that is most important to the CFO, to the CEO? How can I tell [00:38:00] a story around that that’s gonna actually like move the needle?
Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah. Okay. Well, maybe we’ll just end with, I think that the key point at the end of this is all about rethinking everything, and I just love that. Um, I mean, I just love, you know, I think that that’s what life’s all about is constantly changing, constantly evolving, constantly rethinking, shout out to, um. We quote her all the time, but Lisa Schiller, um, CMO of UNC, who said, what was it evolve or dissolve, when it comes to the future of marketing and CMOs.
And I think that’s the point here as well. Constantly rethink, constantly change the speed of culture, constantly change the speed of data, constantly innovate. And that’s, that’s why we do what we do. Right? That’s the fun part.
Desiree Duncan: Yes.
Stephanie Wierwille: Okay, so for everybody listening, don’t forget. We wanna hear from you. Shoot us an email@nonormalbpd.healthcare so that your question can be featured. Make sure you share the show, give us a review, give us a rating, and don’t be satisfied with the [00:39:00] normal. Always be evolving. Push that no normal, and we’ll talk to you soon.
Desiree Duncan: Bye.
