Full episode transcript.

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Desiree Duncan (00:01.1)

Welcome everyone to the No Normal Show brought to you by BPD. This is where we leave all things status quo, traditional, old school, and boring in the dust and celebrate the new, the powerful, the innovative, the future, all related to how brands can lead the way in health. I'm Desiree Duncan, Vice President of Health Equity Inclusion here at BPD. And I'm excited to be joined today by Yvette Conyers, Associate Dean of Equity, Diversity, Inclusion at the University of Maryland School of Nursing. Welcome, Yvette.

Yvette Conyers (00:31.157)

Thank you Desiree, thanks for having me today.

Desiree Duncan (00:33.262)

Yeah, glad to have you. And also joining us is a friend of the podcast, Chelsea Rice, Associate Vice President of Engagement. And we're here today to talk about health equity and the work of storytelling, which I know is near and dear to Chelsea's heart. I'm very excited. But before we jump in, I'm just kind of curious. I've personally been excited about a few things, but I'm curious about like, what is inspiring you this week?

I'll start with you, Yvette.

Yvette Conyers (01:05.886)

I went to vote today and I think that is on my mind, that is on my heart right now. It's my first time doing early voting. I have hope and I'm really optimistic for our future and it felt really good to vote and to stand in that long line even today at the local library. So I'm hopeful, I'm grateful. Thank you.

Desiree Duncan (01:26.062)

Good, I love hopeful. Chelsea, how about you?

Chelsea Rice (01:30.244)

Yeah, it's a similar season for me, Yvette. I'm just seeing all the different stories that are coming out, talking about issues that they care about. It's really an interesting time to hear from all different parts of our country and nation and what is motivating them and understanding that we all come from such different backgrounds and we all have our personal motivations and issues that really drive us. So it's been an interesting season for sure to hear all those stories.

Desiree Duncan (01:58.478)

Yeah, y'all are better than me. I've actually been kind of trying to tune out. Not necessarily tune out, but just more creating just kind of good, healthy space in my own head. But yes, voting is important. Various stories are important. And yeah, we'll leave it at that. All right, let's jump in. So Yvette, we met you.

a couple of months ago when we were having our first screening of the Everybody's Work documentary in DC. and once we learned more about what you were doing and got really excited and wanted to chat with you, if you could just kind of start off and give us a little bit of a background, like who is Yvette Conyers?

Yvette Conyers (02:47.369)

Yeah, thank you for that. Obviously, Desiree, you read off my name and my title, but I don't like to start with that. And so when I am introducing myself, I like to know that I am a mother, I am a sister, I am a daughter, I'm a black cis woman, I am a millennial. I was born and raised in upstate New York, specifically Rochester, New York, and I was a teen mom. I was pregnant by the age of 17 and have a son who's thriving now.

And so all those things sort of form my lens of who I am when you remove the title or strip the title away. And in this political age, titles around DEI can be easily stripped. It can change tomorrow, but all those other aspects of me will remain the same. And that's who I am today.

Desiree Duncan (03:35.308)

I love that you shared that and that essentially, yeah, we're not our titles. We're not the sum of one of our parts. We're all of these different unique folks and that we are individuals and we need that personalized understanding. So I love that. You know, I'm curious, you're in the nursing field. What kind of, what made you fall in love with nursing?

Yvette Conyers (04:04.445)

It took a while. I'll say that it wasn't something that happened immediately. It was actually, I started a job in home health. So going to see people in their homes, which is a part of community health or public health nursing. And when I saw what truly impacts health outside of the hospital is when I said, I've been doing this all wrong for so many years and really realized the social determinants of health, housing,

food access, transportation, insurance, all those other things that impact health. And I said, this is my calling. I'm meant to be boots on the ground. I'm meant to be in the community with the people in the neighborhoods walking and holding their hand. And so that's really when I fell in love with nursing. I'll advocate for all areas of nursing, but public health nursing really has my heart.

Desiree Duncan (04:56.514)

I'm curious, essentially you were saying that you had your eyes open to all of the other factors outside of the hospital, the exam room. What was it that opened your eyes to realize that?

Yvette Conyers (05:10.323)

You know, in nursing school, we're not taught much, or at least I wasn't taught 20 years ago about all those things that impact. It just wasn't until I took that position in home health. In one of my first cases, I walked in, it was a little Hispanic lady. I remember this very vividly and I went to open her refrigerator and there was maybe two things in there with a bunch of roaches.

And in our conversation, it was she had a son and the son was on substances and had a substance use disorder. And that's where her money was going. And it made me think like many times we see clients or patients and would be like, they just don't want to, they're non-compliant. And it has nothing to do with that.

When you get to know someone and when you really get to know the factors of this is her child that she's still providing for and she's just trying to get her own self some change to eat something, you realize it's not about they don't want to or about compliance. It's about all the other things that are taking priority in that moment. And so for me, it's the understanding of that. And then now how can I trickle that into my patients or into patients, but also into nursing students to understand that too. So I really just was having stands.

but I'm glad that it happened because I wouldn't have had it any other way.

Desiree Duncan (06:26.786)

Yeah, that's so important. Actually, I love that you got to have that experience in a way it feels like more people should have that understanding of people are having a different experience than you are. And just because you see some folks and you feel like, they pulled themselves up by the bootstraps, you know, there's other things that are are happening, which makes a lot of what the film talked about, you know, so important. I'm curious, Chelsea, you know,

Given your work and especially your great knowledge and background with storytelling of nurses, communication and the like, I'm curious what kind of struck you with what Yvette shared about the fact of understanding that people are having these various experiences outside of the hospital, the exam room that we really should understand and help get that point across.

Chelsea Rice (07:25.358)

Yeah, mean, Yvette, her experience as a nurse going into someone's home, you know, a lot of clinicians don't get that opportunity. They don't get to go and see their patients beyond that exam room that they're in. They may not get that full perspective of who is that person when they leave the door. I mean, as a clinician, you're almost, I would imagine, like trying to solve a mystery. You know, they're giving you some facts and you're also making some observations about, okay, what maybe what they're wearing, maybe, you know, how they look that day, maybe.

if they seem like they're a little scattered or all over the place, maybe you're you're picking up, how did you get here? How was your day today? And maybe they're telling you details about their lives or maybe it was a struggle to get to the clinic that day, or maybe they were late because the buses weren't running on time. And these are all kind of little details you kind of, would imagine have to collect as a clinician to figure out the full story of a patient beyond just them saying, my symptoms are.

I'm hurting in this way, you know, this is, don't feel well today, to paint that full picture of what might be going on. And a lot of clinicians don't get to see their patients outside of those walls. And so, but the important thing is like being able to establish the trust there that the patient will even be willing to tell you what's going on with them outside of why they came to you that day, beyond a stomach ache or something like that. I think that,

what we see in storytelling and what motivates me to keep doing work like this is it's only through storytelling that we can actually realize like our shared common lived experience and kind of appreciate the differences, but also some similarities and also, you know, helping us understand, they came from a similar background that I did, you know, or someone meeting someone like Yvette and saying, I have a similar background.

or maybe I can become a nurse or an associate dean someday or something like that. So I just think that there's a lot of power in being transparent and honest. And I think storytelling is just a really beautiful way to bring more honesty to conversations in healthcare.

Desiree Duncan (09:33.422)

And we took a lot of that thinking when we were thinking of and creating the film, taking into consideration of how do we adjust for that in education? So know, Yvette, that's something that you are working towards in your field. You're an educator. You're teaching about the actual, social determinants of health.

I'm curious, just your thinking around the next generation and how they can treat better, treat patients better knowing all of these obstacles that folks are facing outside of the exam room.

Yvette Conyers (10:16.521)

Yeah, I would say probably the last five, 10 years, maybe five years, we've been doing more of a job of letting our students know again about the social determinants, which have been around forever, right? We would be doing a disservice if we did not bring that up in the acute care, in the pediatric clinical, in the OB, whatever it is. Because remember, when folks are coming to the hospital, that's just a small sliver of their lives. The rest of the time is in home.

and what is home to them, what are the resources available to them. So when you discharge your patient and you say, right, fresh fruit, fresh vegetables, I want you to walk around the neighborhood. Well, what does that look like for them? And so I think it is important for us to install that and still that in students, but also we have our national organizations who are also pushing us, the American Nurse Association, ANCC, American...

colleges of nursing. Those type of larger organizations are the ones that are pushing us also to say, you need to really be infusioned into the curriculum and holding us accountable for those changes. Now, do I think organizations should say that? No, but for the...

For the best of the profession, I am glad that organizations are coming together that have our back and collectively saying, we will provide you with the resources, we'll provide you with the toolkits because we're over 4 million strong and whose voice is strongest except for nurses. And so it is starting to happen. I believe we are preparing our nurses to better address health equity for sure. And I'm really excited about that.

Desiree Duncan (11:54.446)

Yeah, and we actually spoke to some of those organizations and institutions you had mentioned about solutions around this. And in fact, I think that was kind of the catalyst for why you were able to attend. If you could just share a little bit about how you heard about the film and what brought you to the screening.

Yvette Conyers (12:14.453)

Yeah, so a colleague of mine, Katie Boston Leary, who's at the American Nurse Association is the one who sent an email about attending this event. And I had a conversation with the Dean, Dr. Yolanda Obalu at the University of Maryland School of Nursing, and then my two colleagues, so Emily Ngu and then Oni Essochi about attending as well. And we came into DC. It was a foggy day, cloudy day, and it was rainy, and it was cool.

But when we got there, the warmth was there. We warmed up really quickly just to be in a room with all these big names and people we just didn't know and to know we were all there for the same thing, addressing health equity.

and really celebrating this film, celebrating the work of the director, Chad Tingle, Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, all those folks who came together, right? And they were all in their room together and it was hugs and it was smile and it was joy and it was energy and it was community and it was family. And family is what's important. And the fact that there were people there who...

You may not think would be there to address racism and health equity, but there were allies there, there were co-conspirators there, and truly it is everybody's work. And so it was important that they were there.

So that's how we got invited. And my Dean and I, started having conversations after that about, right, we gotta get this film back to Maryland ASAP. We gotta get it back. And the excitement was just in the pit of our stomach, you know, until we were able to really screen it. And then from then, we're offering another screening in a couple of weeks. So we're really excited about this work and champion the work of Health Equity.

Desiree Duncan (13:52.494)

Yeah, we're so grateful that you were able to attend and brought folks with you. And I know you've been in conversations with Chelsea on ways to get it. You've already screened it at your school and getting it at other locations. But Chelsea, I'm kind of curious, just knowing that you were also in the room and you got to even talk to folks after the fact. But kind of what was your experience of being in the room during the screening?

Chelsea Rice (14:17.262)

Yeah, I think what you were talking about about like kind of the family aspect, I don't think I fully appreciated that everyone would know each other. know, who are we like we're shift nursing this we are, you know, we weren't like that big a deal before and we were meetings a lot of you for the first time and I think it was just a really powerful moment for us to to witness all the connections happening and people walking up and giving hugs and.

feeling like there is already a movement here, which is what we felt in producing this film, that it was meant to be elevating the work that was already happening and the connections that were already being made around racial justice and nursing and healthcare. So it was really wonderful to just see like the in real life embraces and celebrations. And then, I mean, especially in regards to like community and kind of the sisterhood of nurses and nursing, watching y'all like.

cheer for each other in the middle of the film was one of probably the highlights of this experience for me, know, clapping when some of our fearless had these really powerful moments on screen and just hearing how it resonated and you all were seeing it for the first time. I mean, it just made us all so emotional, feeling like we made something that really that was motivating and causing an out loud response in the middle of the film. So that was that was really

special for us. then afterward, just talking to people, you we were trying to get folks takeaways and stuff for for a highlight reel of the event afterward and hearing how people were responding. I mean, people were emotional, you know, they were talking about how it really the film made them feel seen. It made them feel like things that they had noticed over the course of their careers were finally being brought to bear and and that they were seeing it in a room surrounded by other people.

And they say that there's power in collective experience of art, that it actually is more emotional and can be even that much more powerful for you to experience art in collective and in community. So a lot of people were remarking on how much more powerful it was to see it with other people, that they could turn to the person next to them or the person they brought and say, just like you did, Yvette, what are we doing next? Where are we taking the messages and how are we getting into?

Chelsea Rice (16:40.272)

getting our hands dirty around the issues that this film brought to bear. yeah, it was just, it was really an amazing day. And like you said, it was cold and rainy outside, but it was just a really, it was a party inside the theater at the end of Nurses Week.

Desiree Duncan (16:55.8)

Was that Nicole Kidman that told us that at the beginning of AMC movies that there's a power in a collective? I'm joking. But you mentioned essentially that this work is your, this is your life passion, right? And Chelsea, you had mentioned just essentially the idea of that we're amplifying these voices. And it got me thinking, I'm like, that's essentially like what

Chelsea Rice (17:03.002)

I don't know.

Yvette Conyers (17:14.133)

Yeah.

Desiree Duncan (17:23.99)

our passion is and the work that we're doing is that I love the idea of amplifying the voices that need to be heard. Other than I guess this podcast, I'm usually more of that behind the scenes kind of person of giving shape to others narratives in order to create impact and empower and what have you. So around that, there is that power in storytelling. And Chelsea, you'd mentioned it in your remarks, but I'm kind of curious, Yvette,

knowing the stories that were shared in this film, you know, why did you feel that this was something that was important to hear and to bring to more folks across the state of Maryland?

Yvette Conyers (18:05.779)

Yeah, thanks for that question. I think it was a couple of things. One, as I briefly mentioned before, it wasn't just

black women in the documentary telling their story or black men, it was people from all over, all different backgrounds, right? Older, young students, professionals, LPNs or LVNs, RNs, advanced practice. It was everyone coming together to tell the story. And I think that's what's so important is that collective impact as we were talking about is so much greater when you're just not hearing from one sort of group or one audience.

But that trickle down impact to say, when we call on our allies or when we call on people who don't look like us to help us with this work and they see someone who looks like them in that movie, then hopefully it resonates with them to say, well, I guess this is my work too. And I think it's going to be, it's gonna.

make us sort of change the narrative into who is watching this film and how can we get it to the masses to really address the racism because Black people can't address the racism, right? We need white people to address the racism specifically in this situation. And so for me, I think that's the heaviest part of it is that we need everyone to be at the table and to hear the many stories of those involved. I think it's just...

It's heartfelt, it's warming. You heard from the indigenous community, you heard from the founder of iBias, Dr. Rebecca O'Connor. You heard from just so many people and how it's impacting everyone at every level, including my students, including consumers, right? Which we will all be consumers of healthcare, including those who are academia, those who are in leadership, those who are in practice, you name it, the impact is on everyone.

Yvette Conyers (19:59.901)

And so I think having various stories available to share is very important in highlighting the true need that we have, the work that we're committed to, and the justice that will move forward.

Desiree Duncan (20:13.878)

Yeah, I love that. you know, whenever I think about this work and, you know, driving health equity, racial justice, and the social determinants of health, I can't help but think about most people's minds go directly to, of course, the socioeconomic status, you know, what you might be dealing with from a substance or mental health standpoint.

When you see folks like a Serena Williams, a Beyonce, Olympians who are also still having these issues within healthcare, I always want to just kind of bring that back to folks to better understand that this isn't just happening to folks who might be having some insecurity. This is happening to everyone of all economic levels of all backgrounds.

And I'm kind of curious about your thoughts around, know, when you're in the classroom and you're teaching about these things, or even when you're at the bedside, you know, what are some ways or what are some of your thoughts around, you know, how to address this and thinking about how people even just talk about it, about it being those people's problem over there. I'm just kind of curious your thoughts there.

Yvette Conyers (21:33.993)

Yeah, I think that's a really valid point to make. And I think for me, how I approach this as doing positionality work and doing work with students so that they understand who they are as a person and the position and power that they hold from the beginning. When we are working with patients, understanding that they also have positionality, they also have power, they also have privilege. And how do we

look at both of those individuals coming together and the conflict that they can create and or not create. And so when we take it from a look of let's look at the individual and then from that build upon the history and policy.

and institutions and systems that have been created to hold people in various places and spaces, then I get to see the aha moments and I get to see the opening of their eyes. But it's really not until I allow my students to do that individual core work and then they can begin to see.

and hear from others, right? Because even though they're doing that work, then we've got to have a discussion. We've got to have some dialogue about this. And when folks begin to hear the narrative of their peers in the room, then it makes it easier to have the conversations about the institutions and the systems. But I really like to spend time allowing students to hear from each other. And I'll say, for an example,

Couple of weeks ago, I was talking to students who are in their DMP, Doctorate Nursing Practice program, and they've been with each other for at least two, three semesters. And during the activity that I did, this was the first time of students hearing from their other students things like their parent, or their caregiver for their elderly parents, or that they have a disability if they wanted to disclose, or that they struggled with homelessness. And these are...

Yvette Conyers (23:34.975)

cohorts of students who are going through this journey together and they don't even know about each other. And the reason that's so important is because we're in this together. We need to get through school together. And if I know your experience in transportation issues, maybe I can support you. Maybe I can help you as that colleague. Or if I know you have some food insecurity, when I'm making my dinner at night, I'm gonna make something else for you and bring it to school. You won't know that.

about individuals unless you are able to spend time understanding who they are. And then again, when we go to take care of our patients, understanding who we are presenting before them and who they are presenting before us and how we can navigate the situation collectively for the ultimate health outcome of that patient.

Desiree Duncan (24:19.96)

You're so right. mean, all of this is about being in community with one another. And so you're speaking, of course, from that care delivery standpoint. But then there's even, you know, those of us that are, you know, feeling like we're not as doing the Lord's work as you are in healthcare. But in marketing comms, it's like essentially knowing, you know, who the other person is that you are working with in order to figure these things out together and those solutions.

I know Chelsea community is a big piece of the shift nursing work and that essentially this platform is from what I understand all about, you know, building a community and pushing forward. I'm just kind of curious some of your thoughts and thinking around the shift nursing community and how it came to be and where we foresee the future to go.

Chelsea Rice (25:16.036)

Yeah, sure. I mean, it's a really important part of what we're doing is providing like a safe space, so to speak, for nurses, by nurses, to make people, nurses feel that there's an authentic space for them to get the resources that they need and want to address health equity. It's kind of evolved in the past few years. I think initially when we launched the platform, it was more to reach maybe more early to mid-career nurses that were maybe coming across

health equity for the first time. We were trying to kind of bring people in kind of from a more basic level, so to speak, just knowing that nursing schools and education programs, health equity is not always there and it's not always a big part. In fact, it can be a small or almost non-existent part sometimes of the education system. So, that was kind of our mission is to get nurses making connections with one another.

entertaining them, but also informing them about these issues that are affecting their patients and also their peers. So it was a little bit of like a little bit of snack and then eat your vegetables. kind of my creative director and I, we would always kind of joke about she was always bringing the snacks and I was making people eat their vegetables. So as long as there was a balance there, we felt like we were striking the right note in terms of entertaining people while also

bringing issues forward that they should know about and should care about, as well as the really important thing about bringing these issues forward was making sure there was a solution attached to the issue. And we weren't just saying, look at this statistic about this population and what they're struggling with. We were also saying, here's how you can reach them. Here are resources that currently exist in the nursing field that maybe you're not aware of. And it was kind of more, it was meant to be like a

and elevating and like consolidation and repackaging of things that were already out there that were high quality sources and materials. And then we moved into kind of our documentary filmmaking space and started to see, especially now that the pandemic had started to calm down, people were open to gathering again, seeing the storytelling as opportunities to actually physically bring people together, right? And for them to physically have conversations.

Chelsea Rice (27:36.312)

and connect with one another about issues that matter to them. So of course that started with Who Cares featuring Whitney Fear out in Fargo who is an indigenous nurse and she's a mental health nurse practitioner. And then we moved to Everybody's Work which expanded the scope, We talking to even more nurses across the country and it was a longer film and we also broadened, well, that's not, actually I would reverse that.

sorry, we narrowed the scope from health equity to what is the root cause of health equity, right? Being like structural racism and making sure that we were speaking to the actual issue here. And that is a directive from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation as well, where they've realigned their mission and made it more focused around addressing structural racism. yeah, it's really important. It's been amazing with these screenings.

my inbox is like flooded and people are saying, hey, I just went to this screening. I want to host my own screening. And it's really interesting to even see the connection points between people and to realize how close knit the nursing community really is. And people saying, yeah, I saw that so-and-so was hosting a screening or I heard about their screening and I want to do one too. And it's just been really inspiring to see all the connection points there and to feel the energy.

We've been sending surveys out to get like impact notes about the difference maybe the screening has made or the conversations that have happened. And just hearing not only from the people who are hosting, but the way that the audience is resonating too and hearing that it's fostered discussions. There was one school that sent us a note and we did ask if we could use it publicly. So I feel okay saying this, but.

the actually it brought up conversation on stage with some members of the student body where they brought up experiences at that school, know, experiencing discriminatory or racist practices and bias in their their curriculum and programming and in the classroom. And it actually sparked a conversation series at the school called like courageous conversations or something. And now they're they're trying to continue this dialogue. So just hearing that.

Chelsea Rice (29:51.396)

that yeah, the film can really make a difference. And I think by having this like screening approach, it's where we really insert that community. It's where we are really trying to make people who are working and fighting in the health justice space like Yvette to not feel alone so that you are in conversation and community with other people in a field that can be so isolating, demoralizing and burdensome, especially at this.

right now in the collective dialogue around DE &I.

Desiree Duncan (30:23.532)

Yeah. And you.

Yvette Conyers (30:24.501)

and just jump in for a minute test.

Something Chelsea said too about students, us listening to students to change the narrative, to change the experience, to change it for the next. That's That's huge. It is sometimes scary for students to speak up or they may fear speaking up. But the fact that this move, this documentary is creating a space where students feel okay to speak up and to share their experiences. I think that says a whole lot.

Right? And even at the University of Maryland, one of our students said, this documentary needs to be in the professionalism course. So in the first semester of their nursing class, or maybe second, that this documentary needs to be shown to all students. So now you're embedding something into the curriculum that's going to have lifelong impact, that's going to have a nursing profession impact.

not just, hey, come watch this film and I can volunteer in or can volunteer out. But when you embed something like this and then you're able to support the faculty to have conversations with the folks, the students, that to me is when you really get to, again, build that community and help everyone to see their role in addressing health equity, even our students.

Desiree Duncan (31:38.99)

That's the power of storytelling. All right, any, I know we're about to wrap up. Any key takeaways, like is there something that if there is one thing that you would like folks to take away from this conversation, what would that be?

Yvette Conyers (32:02.741)

Chelsea, you starting?

Chelsea Rice (32:04.602)

Sure, I'm happy to. Let's see. I think that...

Desiree Duncan (32:04.782)

you

Chelsea Rice (32:11.92)

There really is power in bringing people together and there's power in giving people the tools and making the tools easier to implement, right? I think that what we did is we made a film that told a story, but we also packaged it with discussion guides and materials and ways that you could host your own screening. And in fact, we were trying, our attempt was also to make little mini leaders.

You know what I mean? Maybe you haven't stepped up around DE &I before at your workplace, your school, your professional association, or even among your group of nurse friends. But this could be your first step. know, hosting a screening, hosting a gathering, bringing a story like this to your peer group and starting a conversation, that's where you create a change agent. You know what I mean? That's where you go from like, I'm interested in this issue and I'm passionate about it to actually, it's like that catalyzing moment where you transform from being

interested in something to being passionate and becoming a change agent for the future. So that moment when that switch flips and it's all you can think about and now you're really motivated to take action. That's what I'm trying to hit on there with the story.

Yvette Conyers (33:24.277)

And thank you for sharing that and for starting first. for me, I think it's very similar. It's sort of like a moment with our students when they have that aha moment or that light bulb moment that this is so much more than being the ICU nurse or pediatric nurse or OB nurse or whatever type of specific nurse. We are also looking at when that patient does come in, when that person does come in, how are you then including all the other aspects of them and how does policy, how the systems impact that patient and what

is your role in advocating? What is your role in policy? What is your role in systems change? They don't think necessarily that they know or that they could, but I think this is just a glimpse into showing them that they can. And if they really want it, they will.

And all of those folks in the movie are willing to be mentors. Mentorship is so important. That's a key. If I didn't have a mentor, I don't know what I would do. And mentoring others coming along is so very important. And so I hope that students specifically watching this will feel inspired, but also the connection with the mentor to help them get to that route would be something that they also consider as well.

Desiree Duncan (34:39.404)

Yes, love that. All right, we'll wrap it up. think we're a little over time, but it's such a wonderful conversation. So thank you so much, Yvette and Chelsea for being here and for all of you listening. Thank you so much for joining in. If there's something you want us to cover on the NoNormal show, shoot us an email at nonormal at bpdhealthcare.com and make sure you share the show with friends and colleagues and give us a review and ratings on iTunes and Spotify, preferably five stars and apparently, you can start to comment on Spotify, which is fun. All of that would be greatly appreciated and until next time, don't ever be satisfied with the normal. Push that no normal y'all and we'll talk to you next week.