Full episode transcript.
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Des: [00:00:00] Welcome everyone to the No Normal show brought to you by BPD. This is where we leave all things status quo, traditional old school, and boring in the dust, and celebrate the new, the powerful, the innovative, the bold, while delivering the future to healthcare’s leading brands. I’m Desiree Duncan, vice President of Health Equity and Inclusion, and today I’m joined by Stephanie Wo, EVP of Engagement.
And Chris Bevelo, chief Transformation Officer. Hi, y’all. Hey, hey,
Chris Bevolo: howdy.
Des: What a beautiful April start to the. Month. But, uh, we are going to be talking about, uh, a couple of headlines around peer-to-peer crowdfunding for healthcare costs. A couple of quick little nods from Bill Gates talking about the future of AI and what that means, and some updates on the image generation model from Chachi pt.
But first, what have been some interesting things you’ve been seeing in the world?
Stephanie: Yeah, I can jump in. Um, I think we say this every week. I think there’s a lot going on, right? I feel like [00:01:00] every week I’m like, there’s so much happening. Um, but there really is, um, I’m gonna share something that’s really healthcare specific. Um, and this was something that caught. Some conversation in our team chat this past week.
Uh, you would never think that Barbie would be something I would say is healthcare specific, but Barbie, the brand was all up in TikTok, commenting on match day, which was just really cool and created this sort of. Mini viral moment. It didn’t actually catch news headlines, but it was a TikTok moment. Um, and for anybody, uh, you know, match day is when four year, um, medical students get matched with their residency program.
And so it usually, I usually see it being a pretty big moment on social media every year, usually among doctors celebrating each other. But Barbie was commenting on TikTok and, and celebrating doctors and they were commenting on individual doctors, uh, match day, uh, posts. [00:02:00] So it was just a really cool moment and an example of consumer brands and big brands getting in the healthcare world, but it just made my wheels turn around what we in healthcare could be doing in, in that kind of community engagement realm.
Chris Bevolo: So is Barbie have a specialty? She’s focused on. Well, Barbie has all the specialties, right? So Barbie is a doctor and an astronaut and a teacher. No, I mean like is she going for gastroenterology? Is she going er, oh, was she herself matched? No, Barbie was not matched. But hey, that’s a good idea. You should call Barbie the brand and tell them that should be their next thing they do.
Stephanie: No, she, they were just commenting on real people. Oh, there’s gotta be a Dr. Barbie. Right. Many Dr. Barbies. Well that’s what I mean. Like what she, they should have Dr. Barbie going after maybe an ER residency, since I’m a huge fan of The Pit. That would be my Alice recommendation. Yeah. I don’t think you’ve talked about The Pit on this show, Chris.
Chris Bevolo: We haven’t talked about The [00:03:00] Pit. I don’t think you have. Oh my gosh. Des, are you watching The Pit?
Des: I am. I’ve been. Watching it, uh, while I pack and unpack and all. It’s so, so good. And I love that it’s all like, kind of in one day.
Chris Bevolo: Yes. Yeah. It’s, it’s one of the first shows that I’ve binge watched in quite some time where I’m like, oh, I can watch another one.
’cause I was catching up in the beginning. Now I’ve caught up. I think there’s only one episode left, but. Another TV show to add to the mix. There was a cadence of Thursday night pit. Friday night severance, Sunday night, white lotus severance is done. That’s all I got.
Stephanie: Wa wa
Chris Bevolo: you’re back on your trust TV schedule. I, you just gotta, gotta get it done, Des. Gotta get it done.
And cut. Yeah, I’m, I might need to sit this one out, the delays, and I’m just not hoping the conversation. So we have 30 minutes left. I, I guess, Chris, it’s really your call on what we should do at this point. Like, should we move on without Dish? Should we just resurface a episode we’ve done in the past this year?
What I can’t tell is whether there’s an actual delay or we’re just all off because like, like there, I don’t know if that was a delay. Everybody just sat there and didn’t say anything. Which is fine. Like we can cut that stuff out, but I can’t tell. I mean, Des, I can’t tell whether there’s actually a delay.
It’s just not as bad as it was on the other platform, that’s for sure. Um, but you guys are seeing that, right? When I finished speaking, when I finished speaking, it takes a couple of seconds for like me to hear the rest, like you all, or when I am talking like. I’m testing. I’m jumping in quickly to test, so interrupt.
Does Stephanie, I, does Stephanie interrupt you there because I’m, I honestly think it’s just ’cause we’re just like deer in the headlights. Yeah, it’s not, honestly, the only reason I took a long time to respond to your question, Jess, is I was wondering if Chris was gonna jump in first. So that’s the only reason, but that’s an easy thing to cut.
Stephanie: That little pause we had. That’s easy to cut, but Okay. Well, I would just say like, just remember to just be conversational, act like you’re like at a bar talking to a friend. Like, and, and you don’t have to, not saying that anybody’s focused on saying the right or wrong things, but just make sure it’s just conversational.
Des: Okay. Well, and I stopped ’cause I thought Chris was gonna go into the studio after to connect it to Barbie. Yeah, I think we’re just think we’re. Did we interrupt each other? Des if we interrupted each other, then there’s no delay.
Chris Bevolo: I, I can’t tell on my end. Well, I think we’re okay as long as we, it’s not bad to have a pause. ’cause Mara, you can cut those out, right? Yes. Okay. So as long as we’re not just like bereft of something to say. I think we’ll be okay. We just have to be a little cautious. Um, and if we, if we do stumble over des or she stumbles over us, we’ll have to figure that out when it happens.
But I really do think the first, the first couple of pauses were just human error, not technology. Okay. Starting back up on Barbie. I’m gonna toss it to you on studio, Chris. Okay. 3, 2, 1. The Barbie match today. It’s been really super cute to see how a brand is engaging and in the comments and just kind of really bringing cheer.
Des: I think the last time we saw this was when Blues clues popped in out of nowhere and just like brightened our day during Covid Blues clues. What a reference Some of this.
Stephanie: Love it.
Des: Do you remember that when he like just [00:04:00] came up out of nowhere after like 20 years and was like, Hey, yeah. Hey, miss me. You guys look great.
It was really sweet.
Chris Bevolo: Blue Blues clues with my kids watch Blues Clues. That’s how old I am. Yeah. I think the only thing I have close to that is again, yeah, another TV show, the studio where they are trying to replicate the power of the, the cultural power of Barbie by buying and building a movie around Kool-Aid, which is hilarious.
If you haven’t seen this show on Apple Plus, it’s that thread is pretty hilarious I, I suppose this is spoiler alert, but their big idea is to get Martin Scorsese to write a movie on Kool-Aid about Jonestown, which is just. Just, I’ll just leave it there.
Stephanie: Yeah. I, I, I am glad you’re laughing. You can’t even make it through a sentence.
Laughing Chris. ’cause it was pretty ridiculous. I watched it too. And, um, the moment when Mar Martin Soar says he cried. It was just, I was, so, my heart broke. But anyway,
Chris Bevolo: spoil alert. Yep. Okay. There you go. [00:05:00] Barbie. Go Barbie.
Des: Speaking of crying, uh, let’s get into some. And I, I mentioned crying just because, I mean, we all kind of have heard stories of just folks str, you know, struggling with paying for healthcare and what have you.
Uh, but some folks have taken, you know, things into their own hands. But crowd health is. Startup offering a peer-to-peer crowdfunding model for healthcare costs is attracting members frustrated with traditional health insurance. Unlike insurance members contribute directly to others’ medical bills and negotiate cash prices for care.
This model offers some lower costs, but comes with risks and it does not guarantee coverage. Excludes pre-existing conditions or requires upfront payments, and I think. It reminds me of course of, you know, what we have been seeing folks do for a number of years now. Um, just, you know, when a family member or themselves are dealing with something, uh, if they’re un uninsured or what have you, there is something out [00:06:00] there, uh, that they’re using to crowdsource, but now we see a.
Business model, uh, around this. So, while some members report significant savings, experts caution that unregulated healthcare models may leave individuals vulnerable to unexpected medical expenses. So traditional insurance, including a CA, plans with subsidies remains a safer option for many. Uh, yeah, people are going rogue.
What, what’s your hot take? Stephanie? What are your thoughts?
Stephanie: Yeah, this was an interesting piece to see in time. Um, and the headline, you know, they hated health insurance, so they started paying, uh, for each other’s. Um, I think it’s just another example of the frustration with health insurance as you, as you mentioned, Des, you know, that’s been rising for quite some time, but in the last.
Five months since December, November timeframe, um, when you had, of course the, the UnitedHealthcare situation. Um, it’s just been in the mainstream media over and over and over again, and I think really been part of that overall [00:07:00] zeitgeist. I will note this, this type of model, um, has. You mentioned it’s, it’s been around, right?
I have friends who actually use this kind of crowdsourced, crowdsourced health insurance model and have found a lot of success with it. So not saying it’s a good thing, I’m just saying it’s another example of the sort of small uprisings turning to a little bit more mainstream of wanting to leave the traditional healthcare models in all the ways and find different things than that work.
So I guess that’s how I see it.
Chris Bevolo: Yeah, and I was kind of chuckling at the quote that you gave Des from the experts warning that it’s, it’s not as safe as commercial health insurance or the a CA. Um, there are plenty of people who would probably say, yeah, that’s, that’s got a lot of holes in it as well. Uh, particularly if you’re out on the market and you’re not getting a, a decent plan, uh, or you’re getting one of the water down association plans that were approved.
Those can lead you awfully vulnerable and have the, the double whammy of [00:08:00] making you think you’re covered when you’re not. So, um, it’s, it’s not great out there. It’s not great. It hasn’t been great for, I think longer than five months, but you’re right. Five months is, um, Stephanie, the, you know, the unfortunate incident with.
With the CEO at UnitedHealthcare, I think is the, is maybe the tipping point for this conversation. We’ll see. Uh, we talked last week about attention spans, so I don’t know how long our, our attention span is for all this, but, uh, you know, just add it to GoFundMe or any other kind of alternative payment plan that people are forced to go to just to get regular or healthcare in this country.
Des: It’s definitely another example of just the having to go to mutual aid, uh, to support ourselves and our communities since we are feeling kind of left out here in the cold. Speaking of being left out in the cold, uh hu uh, humans may be, uh, relegated to irrelevance. So there is a recent, uh, people article, uh, here De Your Segues are on,
Stephanie: on Flee today.
Des: Uh, thank you. Uh, so Bill [00:09:00] Gates was recently on the Tonight Show talking with Jimmy Fallon about the future of ai. There was a, a headline that caught our eye. It’s not exactly what Bill said, uh, but essentially the headline was, bill Gates says AI will replace doctors, teachers, and more in the next 10 years, making humans unnecessary for most things.
So when you see human, which I identify as, as being unnecessary, and especially in the next 10 years, which I’m. Kind of hoping to still be around by then. What, what does that mean? Like, what is the future of human? Um, just kind of curious your, your thoughts, Stephanie.
Stephanie: Yeah. Well, I, I was, it was interesting to see this headline.
I saw it over the weekend and I dug deep and I, I watched where he, he had the, um, he was on the Tonight Show, bill Gates. Interestingly, it was like a month ago that he was on The Tonight Show, but then the media picked it up like in the last four days. And I think the reason for that is because he’s been promoting his new book Source code.
So he’s been an interview after interview. He [00:10:00] did one with Harvard Business Review. He did, he’s done several. Um. And so he is just been talking about the subject, uh, a lot and getting a lot of pickup. But, um, he did dig into doctors specifically on the Tonight Show, and he talked about how intelligence is rare, specifically, um, intelligence that’s very specialty intelligence like a doctor.
He also mentioned teachers, as you noted. Um, but what he said was that over the next. Um, decade, that kind of intelligence will become free and commonplace. So to your point, he didn’t exactly say doctors will be replaced, but he suggested it. Um, and then he, and then they had a discussion around, okay, well what is the role of humans then in that decade plus future?
And he said that, you know, we probably won’t wanna see robots play baseball. So he sort of insinuated that maybe there’ll still be a role for humans in sports, but not healthcare. Um. I found it a fascinating interview, raised all kinds of questions and I am gonna go read source code, [00:11:00] uh, because I wanna see what else there is, so I’ll just leave it there ’cause I’m sure, Chris, you probably have a, have a take on this.
Chris Bevolo: No, it, it just, it sounds extreme. I know when you have folks like this, Sam Altman said similar things. Um, Elon Musk has said similar things. So you have these really smart tech people say this stuff and it’s very scary, but when you really just stop and think about it, what makes a doctor, what makes a teacher, it’s, it is mastery of information.
Right. So there’s more to it than that. A great teacher isn’t just, uh, uh, somebody who understands all of the concepts and facts and data. Uh, they’re also somebody who’s able to convey it in a way that their audience can receive it and learn from it. Uh, a physician, you know, has to be able to understand all of the data that’s in front of them.
But really it’s just data. And that’s the part that when you think about it, um, you know, if [00:12:00] you can have something really understand that data, uh, the, the capacity to understand it and manipulate it and leverage it is going to be greater than one human. People don’t quite get that with physicians. I think people think physicians know everything.
Um, I think most people would be curious to know how much each individual physician actually knows. Um. So to me, it’s not a stretch 10 years. I don’t know what the timeline. Um, and it does raise the question of like, I don’t, you know, I don’t, I’m too old to play baseball, so what am I gonna do if that’s all we’re relegated to?
Um, but it’s, it’s profound questions that people have been asking for a while. Right. And now I think we’re, we’re on the cusp of having to deal with it. Uh, and if we listen to our friend Paul Roetzer, he will, he will hit us about the head by saying, we are not prepared. We are not prepared, we are not prepared.
[00:13:00] So, um, we should start preparing whatever that looks like. But I can’t even imagine. Yeah, I can’t even imagine the conversations that would have to happen at a national or policy level happening. In any kind of smart way, I’ll leave that there.
Des: I mean, it’s like we’re gonna be entering our leisure era.
We’re gonna be like, uh, Victoria, the mom in, uh, white Lotus where she says she just, she can’t handle, uh, being uncomfortable. So we’re gonna be entering our life of comfort where the, the robots are taking care of all the things.
Stephanie: Yeah, there you go. We had to get a white lotus good art
Des:in sports,
Stephanie: had to get a white lotus reference into an episode.
Um, I love that. Um, so actually I, you know, Des we could, there’s probably a whole sidebar around the leisure era thing because, um, I. You all know Harari. The, um, sociologist and historian, he’s written a trilogy of books and in his last one, well, no, sorry, second to last one, um, which is around the lessons for the 21st century.
He has a whole [00:14:00] dive into that and a whole imagination around what does that look like and how will we come to grips with it, and what is the role of humans when everything is essentially free, which is what Bill Gates is saying. So. Bill Gates is not the first to talk about this, um, but it is really a big thing to grapple with.
I think there’s just so many things to grapple with before we get there is my take, but anyway.
Des: Yes. Lots to grapple with. Alright, so let’s get to our main topic. And the internet has been popping off chat. BT has updated its visual tools, it’s made it. Easier to prompt and get exactly what you’re looking for, but it’s not necessarily better.
Uh, but you’ve probably seen a, maybe a number of posts or your friends, uh, kind of turning their photos into, uh, an anime character known as studio, uh, no, from Studio Ghibli. Um, and that. The vibe. Marketing also is a huge topic around, you know, how AI can be used, uh, in full force [00:15:00] for marketers. Um, but kind of curious, we’ll go back to Studio gli, you know, what are some of your thoughts on like how AI image generation has been evolving?
It’s very exciting. Uh, or it’s almost like we’re there, I know we said like. We’re a couple years off from it being perfection, uh, or feeling a bit more real. ’cause things still feel very, when you look at ai, it’s like, ah, that’s ai. Um, but just kind of curious, what, what are, what are our thoughts on this various tale style of photos and all the imagery we were able to create.
Stephanie: Yeah, well, I’ll, I’ll jump in first maybe and I’ll, I’ll just first talk about the update that happened last week that made this, that made this thing a trend. Um, so OpenAI launched a update to their image generation model. So of course, OpenAI has had an image, image generation model for. Years. Um, there are many other image generation models.
Think Mid Journey, think Runway, think you know, Dolly is now part of Open ai, Gemini VO, and others. So this update overnight, it went from [00:16:00] image generation being like, I can tell that’s ai, right? Like when you see it in your newsfeed, you know it’s ai, it has like weird text and it’s just, you know, the images are weird and wonky and.
Um, and then overnight, the images are now almost, not quite, but almost undetectable that it’s ai. So that’s photography. You can zoom in and you can see really specific and perfect details, like people’s fingernails. Um, it’s, it’s graphic design, so the text is really strong. Um, and, you know, yes, it can create anime style photos and that’s what caught fire, which.
There’s a whole copyright thing there, um, too. So for me personally, this overnight moment was one more sleepless night in my many sleepless nights of ai. Like, I think when Sora came out, it was like a, oh my goodness moment. Um, this is, this was an, oh my goodness moment for me. This was like a, whoa. Huge change overnight.
Um, so I’ll just stop there. I can come back to the [00:17:00] whole studio Oji BLI situation ’cause it is a situation. Uh, but um, Chris, are you seeing things in your feed around this
Chris Bevolo: A little bit, yeah. Yeah. I’m seeing images that people are posting and, um, I’m more curious about the vibe marketing, which I think is awesome and plays right into what we were talking about last week.
Don’t you think? I mean, if it’s moment to moment, then vibe Marketing is here for that. So it just, I mean, this stuff’s coming fast and furious.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Chris Bevolo: Fast and Furious. We can make Fast and Furious eight now in 20 minutes, apparently.
Stephanie: That’s right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Vibe marketing, I’ll just maybe touch that quickly as you can.
You can bring us back to, uh, the design convo, but Vibe marketing, it’s the new vibe coating. Uh, so vibe coating has been this term, uh, for a while around the fact that, um, coders, developers. People without developing development skills can sort of code based on vibes, which means I want a website that feels like this, and you just [00:18:00] tell the LLM what you want and it would create that.
And so now Vibe Marketing is this thought that like, I want a marketing program that feels like this. This is the vibe that I want, this is the energy that I want, instead of going in and actually push pixel pushing yourself. So that’s Vibe marketing in a nutshell.
Chris Bevolo: it seems to be the culmination of all the things that we’ve been talking about in AI where one person sitting in a corner can, can do all the things based on a vibe. What’s interesting to me about it is we, we are harnessing all of this data and knowledge.
And it’s going to be driven by a vibe, which I know that that’s like exaggerating a little bit. But, um, it’s like, come full circle, like we’re gonna employ all this data and technology, this and all of this, this complicated stuff, um, on somebody’s vibe about what happened that day. And we’re gonna go out there and I.
Be able to go beep boop, boop and then boom, build a brand or market based on somebody’s vibe because of [00:19:00] all the tools at their disposal. That’s kind of funny. Maybe we will, we will have more to do than play baseball.
Des: Well, don’t you run on vibes, Chris? I mean, I run on vibes.
Like I, the choices I make are based off of what’s the vibe this is giving, giving off? Do I want to engage? Is this, does this feel right to me? Is this the kind of brand I want to, uh, be an ambassador for?
Chris Bevolo: I suppose I never thought of it that way. Do you, do you explicitly use a vibe filter Des.
Des: Well, I mean, think about like I, I guess I think about vibes, and it goes back to like the Tumblr days, right? Where you would kind of, you would share the things that you vibed with, so you would kind of create your own vibe. Or maybe we can even go back to MySpace. Like you started with creating kind of your vibe, the experience that you want people to take away from engaging with you.
So then from a marketing standpoint, if we’re always trying to match vibes. Without a ton of context, we’re, we’re using kind of, usually we’re using a lot of just kind of whatever general demographics to reach [00:20:00] folks. Uh, I know we’re looking at doing more things contextually and I say Royal, we, not us, b, p, d, uh, but marketers, they’re always looking for the vibe, but they don’t always quite capture it.
So if this gives us that opportunity to really connect, uh, on a values or vibes level. I think that’s the, the future goal of like personalization, right? I don’t know, Stephanie, you might disagree. Well, no, that’s an interesting take. I hadn’t thought of it that way. I, I think, I think that the, the origin of this phrase is really the thought that one developer could do the work of 10 by sort of just saying, you know, I liked how you described it, Chris.
Stephanie: Like, you imagine something, you put it into creation. It’s almost like playing God for the day, right? Like I imagine, and I create, but I like where you’re going, Des. I hadn’t thought of it that way, which is. And, and to tie in what you said Chris, too, last week we were talking about how things change every second and it’s just like the vibe changes constantly.
And so as marketers, gosh, I’m [00:21:00] scared now thinking we need to build brands for the long term and we need to build brands that are rooted in, grounded in research and strategy and data and insights and all of that. But yes, also, how can we create faster, I think is a really interesting space too, to capture the vibe at the moment while also building your brand over time.
Chris Bevolo: Yeah. And that, that’s what I was getting out of it too, is the idea that if, if you follow the old approach and the the number of people involved in the linear process, you’re, it’s gonna take you too long to capture the vibe. But, but all of the things coming together now should allow you to leverage it in the moment.
Um. If you, if you know what you’re looking for, if you’re tapped into the vibe, if you’ve, if you’ve got that part of it. So that to me is the power part of it. And it goes right with the moments because what we’re talking about, I mean, vibes are gonna be driven by moments more than anything else. A moment in a sporting event, a moment in pop culture, a moment in politics, whatever.
Um. [00:22:00] Being able to leverage that, uh, fast and in, in a meaningful way is the, seems like the breakthrough That wasn’t possible without ai. It would’ve been very difficult, uh, for sure, but now it seems like you can do almost anything, uh, and capture that vibe. I’ve said the word vibe more than I have like in the last five years.
I’m too old for this conversation. I should step, step way back.
Des: Don’t limit yourself. Lean into the vibe. But in a way, like when our earlier conversation around Barbie, like this is a prime example of a brand jumping right into the vibe, the moment, and really harnessing it. Um, it’s not quite, I I, I imagine they plan it.
’cause like Match day comes around, uh, uh, fairly. Often, and they probably, you know, uh, noted it maybe the last time I was like, oh, this, this is a way that we can really jump in and engage. Um, but it gives that opportunity, like you had mentioned, to actually be a [00:23:00] part of the conversation, a part of a culture in real time, but then also making sure that you’re connecting it back to your actual brand, um, strategy and platform.
Um, but finding that way to connect it, uh, without losing your essence.
Getting back to the, uh, the graphics. So I, that’s something that’s really been kind of, uh, a frustration for me was the addition of how do we keep, um, I. Text, right? Whenever I’m prompting in something and I want the right text on there, uh, it’s, it, it never really happens. It’s always like some other language or like multiple, just like symbols or what have you.
So this is really exciting for me. Granted, of course I can download it and then put the text that I want using and, uh, editing platform. Uh, but I mean it’s kind of making a lot of that kind of stuff obsolete. Not that I’m thinking Adobe’s gonna go anywhere ’cause we still need, uh, some of those, but I guess.
Actual software like sauce, like is that [00:24:00] going to take more over than actually having these individual tools? ’cause we’ll just be able to do, do everything from our web browser or what have you, or I dunno, I guess it’s the, what I kind of think about is like, what is the future of tools and then of course like what’s the future of like my existence?
Maybe it is just making art since I’m not gonna be working, um, two days a week. Yeah, there you go. We’re all thinking 20 years ahead to just vibing around, vibing around with our AI friends. Stephanie, I would love, now’s not the time, so maybe we can do a cliffhanger here, because I know we’ve had some internal debates about the future of AI and um, kind of this idea that.
Chris Bevolo: AI is you, you, you know, it’s just going to make the people that are already good at something, better at it. Like if you want to take a decent photo, if you wanna produce a decent photo at ai, you need to understand cameras and camera lenses and all that kind of stuff. You need to be a photographer to get the most out of it.
[00:25:00] I am seeing and hearing more from even just this tool that makes me believe that no, like at the end of the day, you will not have to have that expertise. You will not have to be a photographer to get a decent photo out of out of ai. And that’s, this is happening sooner than I would’ve even thought ’cause I was on the other end of that kind of conversation.
But maybe we can get into that next time.
Des: Okay. Yes. Sounds like. Yeah. All right. Let’s wrap. Uh, for all of you listening, be sure to subscribe to our newsletter, the No Normal Rewind, which recaps the discussion you hear on the No Normal show, with some extra insights you won’t find anywhere else. Expect thought provoking articles, exclusive interviews, and a few hot takes.
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