The Future of the CMO: The Leadership Whisperer

Desiree Duncan: [00:00:00] Welcome to the No Normal Show, brought to you by PPDA marketing services firm that delivers the future to healthcare’s leading brands. This shows will relieve all things status quo, traditional old school, and boring in the dust, and celebrate the new, the powerful, the innovative, the bold, all focused around the future of healthcare, marketing and communications.

I’m Desire Duncan, vice President of Health Equity and Inclusion, and today I’m joined by Stephanie Weal, EBP of Engagement in Chris Bevelo, chief Transformation Officer. Hi. We’re all back together again. I’ve missed us.

Stephanie Wierwille: We are back.

Desiree Duncan: All

Stephanie Wierwille: That’s giving, it’s, it’s, uh, is it Backstreet Boys? The back again? Des back

Desiree Duncan: Yes,

Stephanie Wierwille: friend. Yeah.

Chris: No, that’s not Backstreet Boys. Back, back again.

Desiree Duncan: that was Eminem.

Stephanie Wierwille: Em, Eminem.

Chris: Yes,

Stephanie Wierwille: I need to go back to the nineties.

Chris: you do.

Desiree Duncan: Oh man.

Stephanie Wierwille: was a real miss.

Desiree Duncan: But just as good. All right. So, uh, on today’s show, we’re gonna be

Chris: out. I [00:01:00] think we do need to mark this moment in time where Des just said that Backstreet Boys were just as good as Eminem. That is, I’m not

Desiree Duncan: No, I said Eminem.

Chris: am locking that in concrete and I’m gonna, I’m gonna send that email out to everybody I know in the world that you said that.

Desiree Duncan: Actually, I’m okay with that.

Chris: Okay? Okay. Fair enough.

Desiree Duncan: Well, I’ll stand by that. So. Yeah, good in different ways, but good in their respective, uh, lanes nonetheless.

Chris: Yes.

Stephanie Wierwille: I’m so glad you called it hoopla, because that’s exactly what it is in the feeds, is hoopla. I’ve been really having a good time, um, watching it from afar, um, and seeing all of the, you know, the yacht moments. I think to your point, there’s been some backlash before because it’s like all these folks on yachts drinking champagne and, you know, Aperol Spritz, um.

So I think what was interesting was the headlines from it, um, that I have seen are not surprisingly all about AI and creativity, right? And it’s all the conversations about AI and creativity. But my favorite, um, hot take that I saw was that every, every, every talking point was starting to sound like it was written by ai. Um, and a lot of maybe sort of, um, uh, how do I put it? Just similarities. Um. But that said, I’ve also seen a [00:03:00] lot of good news and interesting, um, interesting things coming out of, uh, Cannes. What have you all been seeing?

Desiree Duncan: Well, touching on kind of the, oh, go ahead Chris.

Chris: you go ahead Backstreet Boys over Eminem, please

Desiree Duncan: Okay. Wow, wow. Uh, kind of something you had mentioned about this is a little separate from can, but like more like CEOs kind of putting their thought leadership on LinkedIn and that it’s, it’s all kind of starting to sound like ai. So that’s like kind of the theme here. Uh, but what I noticed this year was kind of interesting on some of the, um.

I guess you can call it like the marketing humor, like meme pages on the socials. They usually, they spend this time of the year kind of riffing on just the exorbitant like excess that is canned. Uh, but. Instead, they had more of a behind the scenes looks. I don’t know if they had plants or if they had like, influencers of them, of their own going to the [00:04:00] actual events and kind of capturing just what different brands are doing there.

So it was kind of, it was interesting. It was more of a, um, a journalistic approach than just like completely, um, pooping on it. But I don’t know. Chris, what, what have you noticed?

Chris: you know what? I don’t follow all those socials. I don’t get into can. I don’t all. What I get is the overall perception of what you said, Stephanie, is people on yachts. I don’t think it will be, I don’t know. I lump it in with Jeff Bezos and Venice, uh, where all the images are coming out of all the rich elites on their, what I will say, a gondola, Ryan Kani will have my head for that. Um, he just like, it’s just like at some point, like all of the backlash to Jeff Bezos and Venice, like renting out an entire city and, um. really what I’m seeing is just kind of like, oh my gosh, Maria Antoinette is giving Maria Antoinette vibes. But that’s it. That’s all I got. I don’t, I don’t know [00:05:00] anything about like the content at can, I don’t know, other than Scott Galloway and Kara Swisher the how to pronounce it.

That’s it.

Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah, I, I think that this year I saw some different differences from previous years. Um, I think, you know, it was about more than awards. It was conversations about where’s, where is the future of marketing communications going. It’s, you know, again, like I said, a lot about ai. Um, but also what I thought was interesting was. I thought I saw a lot more influencers and celebrities talking about how they’ve built their own brands. Maybe that’s just a shift in our world, but, you know, just so many influencers and celebrities now have built really billion dollar multi, you know, incredible, powerful brands and that was interesting to me.

That said, it is still the Met Gala of Marketing, um, for sure. So anyway, just a fun, fun to watch.

Desiree Duncan: That is a very interesting way to put it. The Met gala of of marketing. It’s like our opportunity to, to [00:06:00] peacock. All right. Let’s get into some headlines. I know there’s a, a couple of quick hits. Uh, I’m thinking Stephanie, our, our headline queen all up in the news. What have you seen this week? I.

Stephanie Wierwille: Okay.

Desiree Duncan: so Best Buy. There’s, uh, some news, I believe this just came out yesterday, so Thursday, February 26th, that, um, best Buy is Current Health. So just a little bit of background. Current Health is part of Best Buy’s Hospital home strategy, which also includes things like the Geek Squad, that’s part of their hospital home strategy as well.

Stephanie Wierwille: So think Geek Squad comes to your house, helps you with your health needs. Current Health is the platform that helps you with that kind of virtual remote monitoring. And we covered this in Joe Public 2030 as well, so I’m sure, Chris, you have some thoughts. Um, we covered it. I believe in the funnel wars in our discussion around dispersion of care and care moving outside the hospital and into the home.

And we talked about Best Buy as an example. Um, and here we are a couple years later, moving away from it. Now, my one little caveat [00:07:00] before we discuss is Current Health still exists. That’s just being divested from Best Buy, but what it tells us is Best Buy as retail health maybe is not been able to make the strides at hoped with hospital at home, even though it had a lot of really great health system partnerships, um, in its portfolio.

So do y’all think?

Chris: When was the last time you went to a Best Buy de?

Desiree Duncan: Actually, uh, a couple weeks ago I was looking for new AirPods or new earbuds. The ones that go over the ear, not in the ear, which I point to, like the one that’s in the ear, but yeah, and it’s kind of desolate in there. It’s weird. Why do you ask?

Chris: to

Desiree Duncan: I.

Chris: way, way back when Best Buy used to be one of my favorite places to go. Yeah, I would just go in there and I would just get lost in all the technology and everything. Now it feels a bit like a gula and it has for like five to 10 years. Like the experience in there, that’s, it feels like a warehouse. It does feel desolate. Feels a little Kmart ish. I don’t think I’ve set [00:08:00] foot in a Best Buy and. a year or two because my wife uses the Geek Squad to help her with her it for her business. But otherwise, why am I going in there? I can just order anything online. But anyway, we digress. Wait,

Desiree Duncan: actually been going in because I’ve been avoiding, uh, online retailers,

Chris: I like

Desiree Duncan: so.

Chris: Oh, that’s a whole nother, let’s just save that. Let’s save that.

Stephanie Wierwille: yeah.

Chris: that. Take. Yes, I like that take. Uh, I’m just gonna say like another one bites the dust. I think we have acknowledged. Uh, ’cause this really started happening last year. The funnel wars appear to be over where we said like, it was basically traditional health systems pitted against all these disruptors. Um, and for a while it looked like the disruptors had the upper hand and there was just too many of them. And then it just started. Falling by the wayside, one by one for one reason or the other. And I just count this in the same camp. Right? So to your point, Stephanie, um, current still [00:09:00] exists, but the big retailer, the big brand that was behind it, has said like, kind of basically washing their hands of healthcare. Um, which means it’s not gonna have the potential impact that it could have had for a major brand, like Best Buy to be behind it. So it just. I will say is inertia and status quo seems to be prevailing in the funnel of wars, which I don’t know is a good thing, but that seems to be the case.

Stephanie Wierwille: No, it

Chris: your head. I.

Stephanie Wierwille: just always makes me sad. ’cause the funnel wars is always, you know, you know Chris, the funnel wars and per and consumer, I always have a lot of energy around because I think so many great things that could happen and the disruption of healthcare in a positive way. But hey, it’s not over.

I’m all, I’m still standing on my ground. The funnel wars is not over. It’s just changing. So keep watching those new entrants.

Chris: Okay.

Desiree Duncan: Yes, yes, yes.

Stephanie Wierwille: I, that’s, I continue to believe it. I have to.[00:10:00]

Desiree Duncan: Stephanie’s holding out hope. All right. Uh, so if you want more of this conversation, you know, and you can’t get enough of our debates, be sure to subscribe to our newsletter. The No Normal Rewind, which recaps these discussions you hear on our show with some of the extra insights you won’t find anywhere else.

And of course, our, the future of the CMO White Paper is. Out and can be found on our website. Go ahead and download that. Uh, link to that will be in our show notes as this is the main topic for our episode. Uh, you know, we have all of the different opportunities that we’ve been outlining, and this one we’re, we wanna focus on the leadership whisperer becoming the voice of the market.

And so. A number of years, and I, I don’t know, decades at this point, uh, health system marketers, the focus has been around, you know, being the voice of the customer, understand what the customer, the patient wants, you know, how do we represent that perspective and everything that we do. So from our marketing, our brand, to, to the bedside experience, to market analysis, all of that good stuff.

But however, given where we [00:11:00] are, uh, with the. The CMO role, you know, that kind of gives us pause on like what is the future? What is the, the, the purpose? And so maybe there is an opportunity to be more the voice of the market, you know, but what does that actually mean? What are all the different opportunities?

I’d love for you to kind of chime in, Chris, and just give a little bit of background and kind of some of your thoughts on this opportunity.

Chris: Yeah, I think there’s, there’s two things we can talk about, and the first one is really how do you go beyond voice of the customer to really understand the market in a more holistic? Way. Right. And this is something that again, all credit to Paul Keckley, who at the Joe Public Retreat in December, um, really hit this.

And the first time I really thought of it that way. Uh, the idea, you know, he said something to the effect of the housing market has more to do. With, you know, how our patient volumes and revenues look on a year to year basis. Then a lot of things we look at in healthcare [00:12:00] his point is these economic dynamics that are outside of healthcare, I. Really have a huge impact on, on all the things that we’re focused on. But rarely do we look at those. Rarely do we talk about them, study them, understand them. Uh, and his point was, look, if you, if you want to elevate your value in the organization, bring that perspective to your leadership. Bring it to the board who desperately needs it too. Uh, so there’s all kinds of ways we can do that. Uh, and I’ll let Stephanie hit on some of those. And then I think the other part of it is not just expanding beyond the voice of the consumer. The voice of the consumer is still part of the voice of the market. Maybe one of the most important parts, and there’s a lot more we could be doing there. Uh, and so I’ll maybe, I’ll maybe get on my, get on my soapbox about that. But Stephanie, maybe give us a little more detail on ways that we could, you know, move beyond just the voice of the consumer.

Stephanie Wierwille: Yeah, absolutely. [00:13:00] I think, um, I think market is the key word here, and I love how the report talks about this. I love how Paul Keckley set it up at the Joe Public Retreat, um, and kind of defined this idea of market. Funny that market is part of the word marketing. Um, but usually we think about market and marketing as target market, right?

And market in a business sense is so much broader. So it’s everything from healthcare, economics, what’s happening in the macroeconomic view. What’s the business of healthcare? What are the shifts in reimbursement trends? Payer mix, we talked about new Iran before, right? What? What’s happening with them?

Policy and regulation, culture shifts, tech adoption, a view of the patient experience, and then things, of course, that are more in the traditional marketing realm like org reputation. But I think. you know, thinking of it in that broader, broader view, which the board sometimes understands better, what is our reputation?

What’s the public narrative around us? All of that is part of brand. So it’s a broadening of the word marketing and market. Um, sounds a little overwhelming, [00:14:00] but don’t worry. We’re gonna go through how to do this. Anything y’all would add that I missed or edit?

Desiree Duncan: No, just what you mentioned about the kind of what’s going on in economics in general, right? And right now, you know, things are feeling very unstable for folks. So then what do people start to look for? Stability, right? And then brands and I guess, uh, artifacts that kind of reflect that is what people start to, to trend towards.

But, um, I, I mean, I notice it more from a, and I think you touched on this before, Stephanie, of like, um, kind of cons, I guess it’s consumer. Goods that are being consumed or kind of the, uh, what people are kind of demonstrating themselves from their, their actions and behaviors. Like we saw the rise of the hipster during the recession in the 2010s, right?

Right. Now we’re seeing the kind of the rise of the, the quiet luxury and that sort of thing. It’s like old school, uh, artisanal thinking. But anyways, um, I think that gets us back to the consumer, [00:15:00] but that’s where my mind kind of went when you had mentioned just the, the how, the. The larger shifts in the world affect, you know, the, the larger market that healthcare, uh, needs to address,

Chris: I’ll, I’ll

Desiree Duncan: Chris.

Chris: example that goes outside. It, it impacts the consumer, but it’s more about employers. Alright, so let’s think about the market in terms of the companies in, in your market. I. Uh, who of course have in most cases or a lot of cases, commercially insured health benefits. I guess that’s redundant. Um, so those employees are coming to you and there is, we talked about this in show Public 2030, there is a growing trend companies that are abandoning their health benefits programs instead giving people. Sacks of cash and saying, go out to the ACA market to get your insurance. Uh, we talked about this when we released the book. [00:16:00] We keep seeing stories that more and more companies are going there because they don’t like managing benefit plans. It’s just there’s a lot of risk. It’s a lot of work. And if they can just give money to people to go out and get insurance on their own and still get the tax benefits from that. lot of ’em are gonna take advantage of that.

Okay. So how many employers in your market are doing that? What is the impact on you? Because as we talk about in the book, if a consumer is left on their own to go out to the market to get insurance, there’s no guarantee what kind of insurance they’re gonna get. They don’t have the employer. As kind of their advocate from a commercial insured standpoint. So you as a provider are now dealing with more and more people who are walking in with market insurance instead of commercial insured insurance. Uh, and that means most likely you’re gonna have a harder time collecting from a lot of ’em, right? Just in general. So it’s gonna add to your, um, [00:17:00] revenue cycle woes, it’s gonna add to your, um, write-offs, all of those kind of things. How much is that happening in your market? Are you monitoring that? Uh, are there big employers that are pursuing that? That’s an example of going beyond the voice of the consumer to understand the market.

Stephanie Wierwille: What I like about that example a lot is, and I think Paul correctly talked about it this way, it’s, you know, the question of who understands. People, I’ll use the word people, consumers, behavior better than marketing. It should be marketing’s job to really understand, you know, traditionally we understand that we own the consumer well.

Then how do you come at it from the lens of this is the behavior we’re seeing. And that’s an example that that behavior is very much impactful to the entire. The entire business. Right. So I guess what I’m trying to refine in, in saying this is the example you gave Chris, I think is great because it’s a way, like, it’s a way to bring forward and say, this is what I’m seeing in consumer [00:18:00] behavior, but it’s your Trojan horse for that.

What you’re seeing in consumer behavior has such a bigger impact, right. As opposed to coming in and saying, let me share a finance trend with you. Right. So I, I liked that of, of, of how Paul Keckley talked about it.

Desiree Duncan: What’s a way to start, you know, is it being able to, you know, attend the C-suite meetings to really hear what is being discussed between finance strategy, CEO, to then kind of have your, almost like your research brief to go out into the market to understand and bring that back. I am asking you, Chris.

Chris: Uh, that’s, I don’t know, like you, you’ve gotta figure out a way to bring this forward in a co, in a. Coherent way. Right. Um, but to me this is exciting. I mean, Stephanie, you said it sounds overwhelming as a marketing brain. Right. As somebody who has curiosity, how cool would it be to try to figure out like, what’s the best way to [00:19:00] all this?

Right? Does like how do you, there’s, there’s 1,001 things you could be looking at. You can’t look at all of them, but how do you, how do you figure out the. Perfect algorithm of data points to pull together and say, this is what we’re seeing in the market. seems awfully cool and a, and a completely undiscovered territory, right?

Like, nobody’s doing this in the health system space that I’m aware of. Um, so to be able to go out there and kind of find your way and come up with this comprehensive picture, that sounds like a really awesome, fun endeavor. Um, however you bring it forward.

Stephanie Wierwille: I think it starts to that point with, with the research and with out and spying and figuring out what is happening, right? Like listening in, and I know we’re gonna dig in on, on that in a second here. And then to your point Chris, it’s the narrative shaping of, now let me pull all that together and figure out the best story that I would tell one other.

Um. Thing that I think could be an interesting way in, I was speaking with A-C-M-O-A health system CMO recently, and they [00:20:00] were saying that actually like 90% of their job right now is around policy and they just happen to be a policy wonk. They have a huge passion for policy. They’ve really developed this muscle.

And he was like, yeah, my responsibility also includes philanthropy and it also includes employee engagement. It also includes all these other things, but I have a team to do those things. And he said, because of my passion and policy, I’ve really leaned into that. And I’m seen as that voice of, you know, the policy and regulation landscape for the organization. And I thought, well, how cool is that, right? It just allows all of us as humans, we can lean into our passions and then build a team around you to make sure that, that you’re also covering all these other bullets on the list.

Desiree Duncan: It’s like, to your point, it’s that there’s that notion of, you know, we get stronger in our. Our craft and our, you know, discipline or what have you, if we are looking outside of our own discipline, right? So I mean, some people look at it from a creative standpoint, it’s like, okay, I’m [00:21:00] gonna take up photography so that I can get an idea of looking at things through a different lens and then I can apply that.

But to your point around, you know, going into policy or finding someone to join your team that is into that, that can bring those insights is key. Um. But on the research, I started to think about the, of course, like with Netnography, you know, something that Dr. Col, Marcus Collins has mentioned as a way, as a, as a start and a way to just kind of see, you know, what the conversation is, what is kind of going on.

I know with some of the work that I do, uh, when we’re, you know, kicking off with the new project is I’m like, okay, I’m gonna go to Reddit and let’s see, you know, in this, usually it’s just kind of start broadly with a city. What is that city? Reddit, what are the themes? What are people talking about? And then like also how are they talking about healthcare?

What are their experiences, what are their challenges, uh, to then really understand the landscape and then even just some of the history and how we can tie the brand back to that. Um, but curious others, um, kind of thinking, I know we’re getting into more of that research and thinking.

Chris: No, I love that, Dez. I [00:22:00] really love that because like I said at the beginning, not only are there limitless opportunities. To understand the market outside the voice of the consumer, we need to do better, even on the voice of the consumer. Like we really just rely on what I would say are ineffective and tired approaches, like surveys, I’m sorry, like probably heard me rant on this before, but asking people what motivates them and how they behave a surefire away to not learn much about how they. motivated and behave. It’s just, it’s just not, um, you know, we need to do better. Just again, within the last week I sat in on a call where there was research shared about what do consumers want from their providers? And the top answer was a, you know, experienced, qualified physician. And it’s, it’s like no shit. Like if you, if you’re listing that on options for people to choose from, like convenience, all this stuff, who. Who is gonna say, you know what? I don’t want my physician to be [00:23:00] qualified. I don’t want them to have experience. I prefer somebody right outta school. I prefer somebody who got their medical degree at Defy Industries.

Like, no, that, that is so obvious. We need to go deeper. And so it doesn’t mean you don’t do surveys or focus groups, but like exploring Reddit is a perfect example. Um, or other social listening. We can do ethnography, watch what people do. What they say they do and what they actually do rarely jive. If you ask people, do you want to eat healthier?

They’ll say, yeah, of course. ’cause who’s gonna say, no, I wanna eat more fried food and, and make myself sicker. do they? No. Of course they don’t. Of course they don’t. Um, perfect example of this is we see research after research that shows that when presented with a choice between, if. primary care physician, you know, if there was another physician that was $25 cheaper per visit, would I switch to them? And people say, yes, I would, who’s gonna [00:24:00] say no, I prefer to pay more money for the same thing. How many people switch their physicians for $25, like on a, on a primary care scale? Virtually nobody because it’s way more complicated than that. So ethnographies, um. Uh, behavioral data. Look at the data of showing what they do, not what they say that’s available.

Now look at it and, and really understand that. Um, and another example like the, um, by the way, the thing I was mentioning before has a name, which as all things insurance is hilarious, is called an ira, an individual cover. Uh.

Stephanie Wierwille: no.

Chris: It’s an individual coverage health reimbursement arrangement,

Desiree Duncan: Wow.

Chris: hilarious.

Like, I don’t know why they picked that. Anyway, we’ll provide some information on that in show notes, but as an example, is a trend that you should be studying from an employer standpoint. are you doing right now to understand how people are using AI for healthcare? ’cause you [00:25:00] know that as a AI adoption continues to grow, that is going to shape how people make decisions. And you can ask them how it shapes their decisions, but that is not gonna be the accurate, you’re gonna have to watch them. You’re gonna have to really understand what they are doing with ai. How much do they trust it? What are the next steps after they look at ai? And I don’t think asking people that is how you’re gonna get there. So it is a perfect example of a dynamic that people should be studying deeply. And I don’t know that we are.

Desiree Duncan: Yeah. And, and, and granted, you know, knowing what budgets are what they are, but like the, the more that we can actually get in the world or the consumer the better. So getting in their home, seeing how they interact with, um, you know. Actions in their own home as far as the way they eat, as well as the products they use, how they’re using their, their smartphones and the ai like you had mentioned.

But there’s this other piece though of survey, which is based off of Value [00:26:00] Graphics. This is from, uh, David Allison, uh, who kind of came up with this term. Essentially, there’s this book that’s called essentially the Death of Demographics, um, and where he’s looking at how. We make humans make decisions based on, they don’t make ’em based off their demographics.

They, they base it off of, you know, kind of their values. And so to your point, Chris, they’re going to tell you based off of like how that’s going to make them appear versus like, what we actually are almost like the idea that, you know, we’re not as altruistic as we like to think we are. Right. Um, but this notion of there’s a set of questions that can be asked to really get more at the, uh, at the person’s values and what is important to them, to then be able to tailor a brand to that, uh, which is a little bit better than asking them like, point blank, are you going to choose this or that?

Right? I dunno, Stephanie, I know you have some pressing thoughts.

Stephanie Wierwille: well I have a few examples. Two healthcare examples, one non-healthcare, um, of. Observing consumer [00:27:00] behavior and how that can lead to like a actual, you know, business insider implication. Um, I’m gonna go way back in the way back machine. This is a very traditional, obvious old school example and it’s not a new one.

But the point is, is still, this still matters in the world of social listening and in the world of data. Um, so back in the day, I worked on Chrysler Fiat for a hot minute and we would go drive, test, drive, Fiats, secret shopping. Go to the dealer test, drive a fiat, pretend that you’re in the market for it.

See how the conversation goes with the dealer. Ask questions. Who are you talking to? Who’s driving this car? Right? And see how, see what that experience is like. Listen around. You look at who’s test driving and what questions are they asking. So now apply that to healthcare. So recently I was at an urgent care with a client. We were touring, as we do, and. I didn’t, I was very careful not to, you know, look at the patients and their faces because hipaa, but I overheard a conversation where a patient was being told that their condition was more serious than an [00:28:00] urgent care could handle, and they needed to go to an er. And the patient asked, could you call ahead to that ER and get me an appointment? So. Okay. That’s interesting. Right? Then you could think about, do you get asked that a lot as, as as urgent care employees, and what could, what could we do about it? Um, another example, so this was on our podcast last year, I believe, after Health HLTH conference. We interviewed the Chief Health Health Officer of Meals on Wheels. Um, and she was telling us that Meals on Wheels, as part of their business model, they go into houses, of course, with seniors to serve the meals. They also will put meals in the refrigerator, but they also happen to check out, um, you know what else they’re eating and they look at, uh, is the senior taking their medication.

They document all of it for care purposes, but then they aggregate it on the backend into overarching, I’d call this big data. Right? So then they’re able to understand more about seniors in their lives in addition to all the other third party [00:29:00] information they’re getting. So what I’m trying to say is. In a world of brilliant and amazing first and third party data and social listening data and all of this, it can be easy to forget about.

Let me go sit in a waiting room an hour and see what I learn.

Desiree Duncan: Maybe we’re nerves, but like that does sound so fun, uh, to me and like, and this, there’s so much that you can glean by just ’cause we don’t, like, I think about that too. I’m like, I, I scroll, scroll, scroll. I’m looking and like reading through these words of like some other person, uh, trying to find an insight.

Whereas like if you just actually just sit and listen, there’s actually a book up in, uh, reading that’s about the art of noticing. And to your point about like as a marketer, taking more time to put our human hats on instead of reading things, actually sit in a world and listen, uh, watch and, and see, feel kind of like what’s going on, experience, like what is actually going on to glean those insights in [00:30:00] order to take it back to,

Chris: Yeah,

Desiree Duncan: uh, to make adjustments to our experience or marketing, what have you.

Chris: I think it’s the combination of that with data, right? So the, the power of data right now allows you to really like go, wow, there’s a correlation between new home building and primary care. I. Whatever. Right. That’s an obvious one. I come up with something different, right? Some, it’s like Amazon who says, you know, connecting, connecting a purchase, you have to something completely random. You can see that in data, right? You can say, wow, over the past 10 years is a correlation between this what seems completely obscure and this, which is volumes in this one service area. Right now the question is, why? Like, why is that happening? Why are people making a decision seemingly related to this thing? the only way to do that is to get in deep. it’s not just asking people, because again, just you may, they may have no idea that there’s this correlation, [00:31:00] but it’s right there in the data. So you’re gonna have to dig in and connect the dots and really understand, oh, when this happens, a lot of people do this and then they take this and then ends up driving to do this. They may not even realize that kind of connection. But if you can get in there with ethnography, with deep interviews, putting your human hat on, like you said, Des, really uncover some amazing things. exciting. Why that should be exciting.

Desiree Duncan: Yeah, and it’s some anthropology and it’s something we do, you know, get to do a bit of, you know, with our insight, uh, framework, you know, looking at all of the different five Cs to then find what trends are happening and then kind of make meaning of that. Uh, something I’ve been thinking about is like, I’m always just kind of tied the heritage right, of an area and like tapping into that and looking at like what is from a business standpoint, right?

What companies. What brands were founded here, which is also kind of rooted in the culture of that area, [00:32:00] but then also looking at, you know, kind of the trends of what startups and companies are kind of, you know, bubbling up now. You know, how much of it ties back to the, the legacy, the culture of the area and how much of it is getting into, um, just jumping into tech.

But, um, all of this is, is great. Great, great fun. Any closing takeaways? Just from this conversation, we wanna make sure that people.

Chris: VOM, who

Desiree Duncan: VOM,

Chris: song

Desiree Duncan: voice of market.

Chris: oh m. Would it be Eminem? Or would it be

Desiree Duncan: Wow. All right, we’re gonna wrap here. Uh, so for all

Chris: who it would be.

Desiree Duncan: of you listening,

Chris: It’d be Eminem. Voice of Mather wasn’t his real name. Something. Mather?

Desiree Duncan: Marshall.

Stephanie Wierwille: okay.

Chris: that?

Desiree Duncan: It was a stretch,

Chris: Yeah, I know. I’m sorry.

Desiree Duncan: Marshall Mathers

Chris: to wrap it all up in a bow. It’s a pretty ugly bow as most

Desiree Duncan: fifth.

Chris: I make for [00:33:00] presents. My gift wrapping skills are not great. There we

Desiree Duncan: Yes. Yeah, you tried it. Eminem does sound for Marshall Mathers, so you’re right on that. All right. For all of you slim Shady that are listening, don’t forget that we want to hear from you. So shoot us an email at no normal@bpdhealthcare.com so that your questions may be featured in our next episode. And make sure to share the show with friends and colleagues and give us a review and rating on iTunes and Spotify.

Preferably be five stars and some comments on Spotify. All of that would be greatly appreciated. And until next time, don’t ever be satisfied with the normal push that no normal y’all, and we’ll talk to you next week.

Chris: Hi.